Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

DDest

UAdel BDS III
Hello everyone!

I was just wondering what is the general opinion of the doctor of clinical dentistry (oral surgery) offered at the university of Sydney.

How is it regarded in the profession? Especially, in the perspective of OMFS who had to go through dent + med school compared to this specialisation.

It is an ADA accredited specialisation, which made me wonder what would be the main differences between that and OMFS. My understanding would be that OMFS deal more with neck/face injuries compared to oral surgery (where it would be mostly complicated wisdom teeth + surgery concerning the jaws?). Please correct me if I did not get things correct.

Thanks!
 

Smith88

Member
Hello everyone!

I was just wondering what is the general opinion of the doctor of clinical dentistry (oral surgery) offered at the university of Sydney.

I think all specialty training programs (all DClinDent programs) at USyd are highly regarded in Australia and internationally.

How is it regarded in the profession? Especially, in the perspective of OMFS who had to go through dent + med school compared to this specialisation.

You will find a wide range of OMS specialists all over the world; some that also have medical degrees or PhDs, etc. OMS is a dental specialty not medical (yes even in Australia and NZ). It is true there has been a push by some to make all OMS trainees do a medical degree in Australia/NZ since 1998. However, the option to do OMS without a medical degree in Australia/NZ is now available again. I think you will find that most of the dual qualified OMS graduates over the past 10 years were they themselves taught by single degree specialists! soo.. yes its highly regarded.



In some places the OMS programs are better structured/organised so that only after you are accepted into the OMS training program ..the integrated medical degree (which is optional) is not given until the final year of OMS training. Unfortunately, due to the fact that the RACDS-OMS program now encourages applicants in Australia and New Zealand to first obtain both a dental and a medical degree without any assurance of actually getting a postgraduate training position. This has now created a silly surplus of dual qualified people across both Australia and New Zealand who are without any postgraduate specialty training (kinda wasteful of resources! Particularly since there is no other specialty of dentistry or medicine that requires anyone to complete both of these degrees; it becomes an expensive and pointless exercise without having integrated OMS training). Australia and New Zealand are set to have a lot of general dentists with medical degrees or medical GPs with dental degrees (and a lot of HECS debt).

I hear that many of these dual qualified people have now started applying to the new DClinDent programs as well as the RACDS-OMS program, or some are simply applying to overseas OMS programs.


Additionally, any Australian dental graduate can go (at anytime) overseas and do OMS (without a medical degree.... This is what I did) or any other dental specialty for that matter : endodontics, or prosthodontics, etc. and come back and apply for recognition of their overseas speciality training and register with the dental board of Australia or DCNZ. I think as long as you go to a well regarded dental speciality program overseas it shouldn't be a problem. There are quite a few prominent single degree OMS guys who work in Australia and NZ who completed their dental degree in Australia/NZ and their OMS training overseas.

OMS is a specialty of dentistry don't forget ...and as such: it is your dental degree and your postgraduate training that allows you operate (not whether or not you hold an undergraduate degree in medicine... which many OMS do not).

At the end of the day it doesn't make a huge difference which path you take. I would just aim to choose a training option that suits you best.

It is an ADA accredited specialisation, which made me wonder what would be the main differences between that and OMFS. My understanding would be that OMFS deal more with neck/face injuries compared to oral surgery (where it would be mostly complicated wisdom teeth + surgery concerning the jaws?).

You will find some single qualified graduates who do lots of facial trauma and orthognathics and you will find some dual qualified graduates who love to only do implants and wisdom teeth.. and visa versa.

That being said.. if you want to do a fellowship in H/N or facial cosmetic surgery you would be probably be better off completing the med degree as this will give you a few more options.
 
Last edited:

DDest

UAdel BDS III
Thank you for the reply! It was really insightful.

That was my feeling in regards to the DClinDent at USyd.

Would this mean that the programs are to be held as equal? I feel that there will be a feeling of contempt from those who completed a medical and dental degree toward those who complete this DClinDent program. Particularly, as the OMS practitioners would have had to complete at least 8 years of dental/medical school + training position/internships, compared to those who have complete the DClinDent program only (min of 7 years but no internship required).

Nonetheless, it is good to hear that this program has been well(?) accepted in the dental/medical community.

Additionally, any Australian dental graduate can go at anytime overseas and do OMS (or endodontics, or prosthodontics, etc) without a medical degree and come back and apply for recognition of their overseas speciality training and register with the dental board of Australia.

I think as long as you go to a well regarded dental speciality program overseas it shouldn't be a problem.

There are a couple of single degree OMS guys who work in Australia who completed their dental degree in Australia and their OMS in the States or elsewhere.

This thread (dating from 2013) was a similar debate about this topic.
What's happening to the Oral Surgery specialty?
 

Smith88

Member
Thank you for the reply! It was really insightful.

That was my feeling in regards to the DClinDent at USyd.

Would this mean that the programs are to be held as equal?

Basically.. yes.

In the states the OMS programs without medical degrees are actually more competitive (harder to get into) than the ones that combine a medical degree (for obvious reasons).

There are lots of egos and politics involved not just in OMS, but in the medical and dental world in general. The OMS guys/girls who completed a medical degree will tell you they are better than the single degree OMS guys.. and the Plastic and ENT surgeons and will also tell you that medical degree or not.. all OMS are just dental surgeons and not as good as them.. the General surgeons will tell you that anyone without the FRACS (general surgery) is not a "true surgeon". etc etc.

Bottom line: if getting a medical degree makes you feel better about yourself or if you have a true interest in getting a medical degree. Do it. If you want a PhD.. do it.

The reality is ...the basics of the dental specialty of OMS are the same regardless if you have a medical degree or not: wisdom teeth and implants, prosthetic related surgery, orthodontic related surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

However, If you want to do facial cosmetic surgery or head and neck oncology surgery afterwards.. then you would be better off completing a medical degree.

I feel that there will be a feeling of contempt from those who completed a medical and dental degree toward those who complete this DClinDent program. Particularly, as the OMS practitioners would have had to complete at least 8 years of dental/medical school + training position/internships, compared to those who have complete the DClinDent program only (min of 7 years but no internship required).

The RACDS OMS program is only 4 years long.
Yes.. it takes longer because they require their applicants to have completed both degrees first and internship, etc.

Yes, there will probably be some dual degree OMS trainees or graduates in Australia who are jaded and upset mainly because they are tired and in debt and really want to just get out there and take out teeth and place implants (which comprises 80-90% of all OMS work in private practice whether or not you have a medical degree).

However, If dual degree OMS graduates are truely interested in medicine and actually want to do wider scope OMS practice (H/N cancer fellowship, etc afterwards) then they shouldn't be upset about it as it was a conscious choice they made and it supports their career objectives.

Again, there was ...and is nothing stopping Australian graduates from going overseas in the past or now and doing a 3-4 year OMS program without a medical degree like in the States, Canada, Singapore, HK, South Africa, etc and coming back and applying for registration with the Australian Dental Board. So this has always been an option for anyone interested in doing OMS without having to pursue a medical degree.

However, we now (again) have both single and dual degree OMS training options in Australia and New Zealand and this is a good thing.

Nonetheless, it is good to hear that this program has been well(?) accepted in the dental/medical community.

Yes, agreed.
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
ANZAOMS (RACDS) changed the rules sometime between 1998-2000

Prior to 2000
Anyone who completed OMS training in Australia (or overseas) regardless if they had a medical degree or not (if their course was deemed equivalent) could register as an OMS in Australia.

After 2000
If you completed OMS training without a registered medical degree (in Australia or Overseas doesn't matter) then you would be automatically registered as an "Oral Surgeon" when registering in Australia.


Random example:
DR. TERENCE ALEXANDER
BDS (WITS), MDENT(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
ORAL AND MAXILLOFACIAL SURGEON

Dr. Terence Alexander – Dentofacial

This guy (above) does not have a medical degree. He does not have FRACDS (OMS). He has a dental degree and a masters degree in OMS and a Fellowship in OMS all from South Africa. He applied for registration in Australia just before they changed the rules so he was registered as an OMS because the South African training is considered equivalent.

If this same person moved to Australia and applied to be registered today he would be registered as an Oral Surgeon.

Again, nothing different about his training or what he is capable of doing. Just has to do with politics.

Even if this man came to Australia and registered as an Oral Surgeon from South Africa today he would still be able to practice the same scope he already does. Again, his postgraduate training is no different.
 
Last edited:

DDest

UAdel BDS III
Thank you so much for the information!

I would assume that the number of places available in the USyd program would be more than the OMS training positions (two positions per year(?)*)

* Reference for two positions: Article: Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery (OMFS) Registrar

However, since prospective OMS candidates are also applying for such positions, would the "competition" be much fiercer than the OMS training positions?

If this same person moved to Australia and applied to be registered today he would be registered as an Oral Surgeon

Therefore, Oral surgeons are equivalent to OMS in terms of training/capable of doing.
 

Smith88

Member
Thank you so much for the information!

I would assume that the number of places available in the USyd program would be more than the OMS training positions (two positions per year(?)*)

* Reference for two positions: Article: Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery (OMFS) Registrar

However, since prospective OMS candidates are also applying for such positions, would the "competition" be much fiercer than the OMS training positions?

Therefore, Oral surgeons are equivalent to OMS in terms of training/capable of doing.

Why would you assume it would be more?

I'm actually not sure how many USyd takes per year. Probably best to email the University and ask. I think Otago (New Zealand) has a DClinDent in oral surgery too, but I think they only take 1 or 2 every other year.

I don't think any OMS program (Med degree or no med degree) takes a large volume of trainees.

Again, it might be worthwhile to simply look at single degree OMS options overseas as well (just to have more options). The overseas countries that I see Australian graduates most commonly going to for postgrad dental training are: Canada, USA, HK, Singapore, South Africa. So I would look into applying to OMS in those countries too if it is something you are really interested in doing.

I found these (which are only a few examples of the many 3-4 year overseas OMS programs Aus/NZ dental grads can apply to which should all be suitable for registration by Australian Dental Board or DCNZ as a specialist):

Due to current politics within OMS in Australia/NZ
  1. If someone from AU/NZ who had completed both a medical and dental degree finished one of the above listed training programs and came back to Australia/NZ they would be registered as an OMS by Aus Dent Board/DCNZ.
  2. If someone from AU/NZ who had a dental degree did one of the above listed programs and came back to Australia/NZ they would be registered as an OS by Aus Dent Board/DCNZ.

However, in both scenarios both people would have completed the exact same surgical training. The procedures they would be trained to perform would be exactly the same and there would be no difference in their scope of practice (even in Aus/NZ regardless of registration OS/OMS).
 
Last edited:

kjz

Member
To me if an OMS cannot do H/N surgery including oncology, he/she should be called "oral and alveolar surgeon";) I think OMS needs dual degree but "oral and alveolar surgeon" doesn't. If someone is interested in implant sort of things, to specialize in periodontics may be a choice. As a periodontist you also can do a lot of alveolar surgery.
 

kjz

Member
University of Otago has some "confusing" specialist degrees ;) e.g. OMS (BDS & MBChB then OMS training) vs Oral Surgery (BDS then DCD), Restorative specialist vs Prosthodontist, etc.
 

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

DDest

UAdel BDS III
Why would you assume it would be more?

I'm actually not sure how many USyd takes per year. Good question. Probably best to email the University and ask. I think Otago (New Zealand) has a DClinDent in oral surgery too, but I think they only take 1 or 2 every other year. I don't think any OMS program (Med degree or no med degree) takes a large volume of trainees.

Again, it might be worthwhile to simply look at single degree OMS options overseas as well (just to have more options). The overseas countries that I see Australian graduates most commonly going to for postgrad dental training are: Canada, USA, HK, Singapore, South Africa. So I would look into applying to OMS in those countries too if it is something you are really interested in doing.

I found these:
Singapore: http://www.dentistry.nus.edu.sg/DGDS/files/omsresprog.pdf
Hong Kong: Master of Dental Surgery in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
Manitoba (Canada): University of Manitoba - Faculty of Dentistry - Dental Diagnostic Surgical Sciences - Master of Dentistry Program in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

In addition to significant research components, there are lectures and tutorials in the USyd program as it is a post graduate course work (masters level course work). Hence, they can't possibly be teaching to only 2 students? That seems a bit wasteful of resources! :p

but yes! Applying to overseas programs might be the way to go!
 

Smith88

Member
To me if an OMS cannot do H/N surgery including oncology, he/she should be called "oral and alveolar surgeon";) I think OMS needs dual degree but "oral and alveolar surgeon" doesn't. If someone is interested in implant sort of things, to specialize in periodontics may be a choice. As a periodontist you also can do a lot of alveolar surgery.

Mate I don't think you understand what H/N surgery entails.

The dual degree RACDS-OMS grads don't graduate competent in H/N surgery either by the way.
Even ENTs don't really graduate doing H/N oncology either!

You can enter H/N sub-specialty from either ENT, OMS, Plastics, or general surgery.

H/N usually requires an extra 2 year fellowship after ENT, OMS, Plastics, or general surgery!
In terms of OMS doing H/N: There are fellowships that accept single and dual degree graduates. however, the majority of H/N, oncology, microvascular fellowships prefer dual degree graduates. (its not impossible for single degree OMS grads to do this, just more challenging).

If H/N oncology is what you want to spend all your time doing when you finish training... I would recommend you complete a medical degree (then OMS or ENT) then a 2-year post specialty fellowship in H/N at a place that gives you lots of experience (see above links).
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
In addition to significant research components, there are lectures and tutorials in the USyd program as it is a post graduate course work (masters level course work). Hence, they can't possibly be teaching to only 2 students? That seems a bit wasteful of resources! :p

but yes! Applying to overseas programs might be the way to go!

Postgrad dentistry is like that (low numbers).
I think Perio only takes 2-4 people every 2 years too.
 
Last edited:

kjz

Member
Mate I don't think you know what H/N surgery is. Even the dual degree OMS RACDS grads don't graduate competent in H/N surgery.

You can enter H/N specialty from either ENT, OMS, Plastics, or general surgery.

ENTs don't graduate doing H/N oncology either!

H/N requires an extra 2 year fellowship after ENT, OMS, Plastics, or general surgery!

Fellowship Opportunities - American Head & Neck Society


Yes, I think you are right. My understanding of the scope of the work for OMS is according to the overseas knowledge, therefore may not be the case in Australia. In some countries, you cannot claim you are OMS if you cannot do H/N trauma reconstruction, tumour clearance, etc.
 

BillyB

Member
Therefore, Oral surgeons are equivalent to OMS in terms of training/capable of doing.

I think people here are implying that the two courses are more equivalent than what they actually are.

Bottom line is this: You cant register as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon from this course. Therefore your scope of practice is automatically limited.
As a simple example, graduates can manage dental and alveolar trauma; not any facial trauma stuff. Probably can't do orthognathic surgery either.

Whoever said that you can go overseas, complete a 4yr course in OMFS and come back and register as an oral surgeon...you will not be able to do any maxillofacial work because you are not registered as an OMFS. Which hospital will hire you?

It's true that graduates will be able to do 80% of the work that OMFS's do. That's because most OMFS work is oral and dentoalveolar stuff.
But try getting a consultant job in the Maxillofacial department of an Australian hospital without OMFS registration. Zero chance.
The course is called 'oral surgery' for a reason.
If that's the kind of work that one likes that this course is perfect for them. But it is not anywhere near as flexible as full OMS training. Whether 10 years of training is worth it for that extra 20% of scope is a different question altogether that each individual must ask themselves.
 

Smith88

Member
I think people here are implying that the two courses are more equivalent than what they actually are.

Bottom line is this: You cant register as an oral and maxillofacial surgeon from this course.

Who said you need to? Due to politics in Australia.. "oral surgeon" is the title of the single-degree surgical pathway. The RACDS offers the dual-degree surgical pathway.

Additionally, If someone has received training in a procedure and they are deemed competent in that procedure then they are then able to perform that procedure. Full stop.

Example:
There are a lot of RACDS OMS grads offering facial cosmetic surgery in their private practices. However, I can assure you other than some textbook theory not a single RACDS trainee would have done "a bunch of facelifts" for cosmetic purposes during their actual training program. Yet, they are allowed to perform them. Why? Many come out and do ongoing CPD and develop their logbook during a post-specialty training Fellowship (usually done overseas). This allows them to demonstrate competence in this area of practice and then they are allowed to do them.

Although neither the DClinDent nor the RACDS program train you to be a facial cosmetic surgeon. ...If this is an area of practice one had an interest in, then I would probably advise you to do a dual degree OMS program and then a fellowship in facial cosmetics.

However, the basics of the speciality: wisdom teeth, implants, orthodontic surgery, prosthodontic/pre-prosthetic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma are all reasonable for a single degree oral surgeon to be very well versed in!

Whoever said that you can go overseas, complete a 4yr course in OMFS and come back and register as an oral surgeon...you will not be able to do any maxillofacial work because you are not registered as an OMFS. Which hospital will hire you?

If an Australian dentist went to South Africa or the United States (two places that have OMS programs that don't require medical degrees) and offer full scope training with lots of facial trauma... and then came back to Australia and registered as an oral surgeon and had a logbook with multiple pan-facial fractures in their logbook wanted to offer this service in an Australian public hospital. I can assure you this would not be a problem!
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
The silly argument of Single vs Dual degree for OMS training has been going on since the beginning of the specialty and it won't end any time soon.

Some references on this issue:
 

Attachments

  • The Development of the Dual-Degree Controversy in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery.pdf
    536.4 KB · Views: 31
  • Demand for Single- and Dual-Degree Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency Positions.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 29

Smith88

Member
Random example:
DR. TERENCE ALEXANDER
BDS (WITS), MDENT(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
ORAL AND MAXILLOFACIAL SURGEON

Dr. Terence Alexander – Dentofacial

This guy (above) does not have a medical degree. He does not have FRACDS (OMS). He has a dental degree and a masters degree in OMS and a Fellowship in OMS all from South Africa. He applied for registration in Australia just before they changed the rules so he was registered as an OMS because the South African training is considered equivalent.

If this same person moved to Australia and applied to be registered today he would be registered as an Oral Surgeon.

Again, nothing different about his training or what he is capable of doing. Just has to do with politics.

Even if this man came to Australia and registered as an Oral Surgeon from South Africa today he would still be able to practice the same scope he already does. Again, his training is no different.



Similar example:

Dr. Hanlie Engelbrecht
BChD, DipOdont(MFOS), MDent(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
Oral Surgeon
MaxFac

The woman (above) has the exact same qualifications and surgical training as the OMS in the previous example (they are both single degree trained OMS from South Africa). However, because she was registered more recently (after they changed the name game rules in Australia) she is an "oral surgeon". However, as I said before they both have the same OMS surgical training from the same University in fact (they are both single degree OMS specialists regardless of title) and therefore have the same scope of practice.

As a matter of fact, after her OMS training Dr. Engelbrecht also completed a clinical fellowship in Cleft and Craniofacial surgery. So she is competent and able to perform a very wide scope in Australia as an Oral Surgeon.

As you can see, It is not the classification of your registration (OS/OMS or single vs dual degree) that determines your scope of practice. It is your postgraduate training and the range of procedures you have been formally trained to perform in your residency/registrar years or post-specialty Fellowship.
 
Last edited:

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

kjz

Member
Similar example:
Dr. Hanlie Engelbrecht
BChD, DipOdont(MFOS), MDent(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
Oral Surgeon
MaxFac

The woman (above) has the exact same qualifications and surgical training as the OMS in the previous example (they are both single degree trained OMS from South Africa). However, because she was registered more recently (after they changed the name game rules in Australia) she is an "oral surgeon". However, as I said before they both have the same surgical training (both single degree OMS specialists regardless of title) and therefore have the same scope of practice.


Yeah, I think they all should be called "Oral Surgeon" rather than OMS. To my opinion, it is not really worth to study so many years to just achieve the ability to do the alveolar surgery and some simple maxillofacial surgery.
 

Smith88

Member
Yeah, I think they all should be called "Oral Surgeon" rather than OMS.

Yes, This is the view of OMS (med degree or not) from many in the medical community. Again, a political name game and turf war. Which has nothing to do with actual postgraduate training or ability.

To my opinion, it is not really worth to study so many years to just achieve the ability to do the alveolar surgery and some simple maxillofacial surgery.

I had to re-read that statement a couple of times. Sorry, I was thrown by the grammar and sentence structure.

Out of curiosity... Are you in medical or dental school?

I don't think I would make a broad generalised statement that any maxillofacial or dento-alvelor surgery for that matter is "simple".

Surgically removing deeply impacted third molars (wisdom teeth) for example can be straightforward. However, some cases can be very challenging (to any surgeon).

Anyone who desires to have high quality postgraduate training of any sort in any medical or dental field will value it and dedicate themselves to it. Simple as that.
 
Last edited:

kjz

Member
This is the view of many in the medical community. Again, a political name game and turf war. Which has nothing to do with training or ability.



I had to re-read that statement a couple of times. Sorry, I was thrown by the grammar and sentence structure.

Out of curiosity... Are you in medical or dental school?

I don't think I would make a broad generalised statement that any maxillofacial or dento-alvelor surgery for that matter is "simple".

Surgically removing deeply impacted third molars (wisdom teeth) for example can be straightforward. However, some cases can be very challenging (to any surgeon).

Anyone who desires to have high quality postgraduate training of any sort in any medical or dental field will value it and dedicate themselves to it. Simple as that.


Mate, that's only my personal view of the scope of practice of OMS. Somebody else may have totally different view on this issue, so don't worry about my personal opinion.
 

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

Top