HSFY med fail, Transferring to Auckland

[frootloop]

Ok, I'm going to say what everyone is thinking:

Most (nearly all) of your points are incorrect, and your rebuttals to the evidence produced against your points are pretty much just a mixture of cognitive dissonance and ignorance.

Let me make this very clear:

- 7 EFTS *will* affect people, unless somehow we can pull the government around (unlikely, we hardly have much political clout). I was involved with the running of NZMSA this year, and I can quite categorically tell you this is the case.

- The pass/fail system does not produce lower-quality graduates. I'm unsure how you're still arguing against this when you've been pointed to peer-reviewed articles which disprove your theory, and you haven't provided any actual evidence to the contrary.

- The competitive first year entry is *much* fairer than selecting students straight out of high school (differences in schools are pretty big, rich kids would sail in), and much cheaper for students than forcing them to do an entire degree before starting medicine. There *is* a graduate entry scheme at both schools, and graduates make up ~1/3 of the class, so it's hardly like graduate entry isn't an option here.

- Training more medical graduates than the system can employ is ridiculous. You can't just take something bad that happens in some other fields, and decide that it has to apply to every field. It'd be an expensive, frustrating waste of time.

/this discussion

[offtopic] Someone had to do it... [/offtopic]

 

[Facebook]

[offtopic] Someone had to do it... [/offtopic]

[offtopic]You're a martyr for the cause [/offtopic]

 

[lane]

- The pass/fail system...

There doesn't seem to be one. There is a distinction-pass-fail-system. Which is very (very very) different from a pass-fail-system. There is a saying... 'C's get degrees'. The rebuttal is 'but they don't get jobs'. Analogously... 'Passes (in medical school) gets you a medical degree'. The rebuttal is 'but it may well not be enough to earn you a medical internship'. I mean... It is for now. But I don't see a good reason to believe that it should be enough to supply all with medical internship. Surely one should aim for at least one distinction - in the area one intends to specialise in. If one doesn't distinguish oneself from the cohort... And internships are competitive... Then, well, what does one expect? I mean, really?

- The competitive first year entry is *much* fairer than selecting students straight out of high school (differences in schools are pretty big, rich kids would sail in)...

Or... Cambridge High School students would sail in.... The meaning of that analogy... Is that when the schooling system moves away from independently organised external examination to trusting schools to internally assess to an objective standard... Then teachers can't be trusted to employ the objective standard so as to not unfairly advantage their students. It is a form of nepotism. Looking out for ones own at the expense of others. On the other hand... There has been much work done on how it is morally acceptable / obligatory to attempt to help ones own (family, community) most in competitive arrangements. I think NZ is pretty fair in the first year arrangement. Giving all the students from all the High Schools the same first year curriculum and see what falls. On the other hand, I see that students from Auckland Grammer (etc) have more of a handle on the Auckland University first year curriculum than some lower decile High School would. Perhaps some lower decile High School who only has relief Chemistry teachers. No glassware to speak of. No particular interest or talent in teaching something like Chemistry to students who are mostly high on whatever drug their parents are taking... And so on...

There *is* a graduate entry scheme at both schools, and graduates make up ~1/3 of the class, so it's hardly like graduate entry isn't an option here.

Tis an option for now, yes. But it sounds like people are thinking that graduate students shouldn't apply because the government is going to change their policy such that they won't be able to complete. Which would in fact make it not an option here. Even though it is an option (the only option in fact) for US medical students.

- Training more medical graduates than the system can employ is ridiculous. You can't just take something bad that happens in some other fields, and decide that it has to apply to every field. It'd be an expensive, frustrating waste of time.

It is the reality for every other field. Why should medicine be the only exception?

 

[Kiwiology]

I am really not looking forward to OLY1. The classes look really interesting and I really genuinely do love to learn... But all the psychological bullshit of so very much hanging on performance in one academic year... Having to study for picking the middle and the ACER consortium's ideal of interpersonal communication... When I have very little faith in it as anything other than... Stacking the lottery in ways unfavorable to me / my peculiar kind of diversity that isn't targeted for preferential admission (yet!). Sigh. It's a mind f*ck... That's for sure...

Medicine in NZ is kind of... Anti-everything else. Most other things don't really care how you did in your first year of University. They care more about how well you did later, in year 2 and 3 and in honors. They give you a year to settle into things.

Medicine... It isn't about performance in that first academic year... Lets not kid ourselves. I would love to see a breakdown of candidates admitted according to last Secondary School attended. Quickly quickly on the basis of one University Year (everyone heard of Cambridge High - right?) quickly... Before other students begin to catch up...

If you feel that strongly negative about First Year and/or the selection process then perhaps you should reconsider if it's right for you.

Your statement that medicine is "anti everything else" has no basis in fact. Law, pharmacy, optometry, veterinary medicine, physiotherapy etc. are all examples of programs which select students based on their performance in the first year of university. Massey University selects for its B Aviation program to train ab initio commercial pilots based on high school results and some other selection processes so don't even care about your first year of university. There are also many examples of medical programs in Commonwealth nations that select people right out of high school still and do not require a competitive first year.

To claim entry into the Auckland MBChB "isn't about performance in that first academic year" is bizarre. You have clearly demonstrated at least some knowledge of the selection process so I know it's not that you haven't read the official criteria. Auckland has one of the most fair and reasonable processes for selection that I've seen and they make it very transparent.

As you continue to post your thoughts they seem to be more increasingly narrowed towards some personal agenda or disgruntlement with how the current system operates (i.e. "stacking the lottery"). I am actually quite concerned that if you view getting into medicine like this that your views actual study and practice of medicine may be similar (that is a statement, not a question). Your own admission that you would need to "study" how to relate to other people when it comes to the UMAT (I presume you mean the "understanding people" section) makes me seriously question whether or not you would be suitable to be a Doctor.

I'm not trying to be rude, but seriously, the things you've said do make me wonder.

 

[lane]

Meh. On the other hand.. I got 2 molecular model kits with bio-chemistry upgrades.. (long story that isn't important)... Wanna play? Seriously... We can make, like, all of the functional groups... Then contemplate reactions (neucleophilic attack!!!!) Txt me...

 

[takahe]

There doesn't seem to be one. There is a distinction-pass-fail-system. Which is very (very very) different from a pass-fail-system. There is a saying... 'C's get degrees'. The rebuttal is 'but they don't get jobs'. Analogously... 'Passes (in medical school) gets you a medical degree'. The rebuttal is 'but it may well not be enough to earn you a medical internship'. I mean... It is for now. But I don't see a good reason to believe that it should be enough to supply all with medical internship. Surely one should aim for at least one distinction - in the area one intends to specialise in. If one doesn't distinguish oneself from the cohort... And internships are competitive... Then, well, what does one expect? I mean, really?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to practice independently in NZ you need to have completed the supervised internship/PGY1 year in order to be accredited with the medical council. Therefore, if there were not enough jobs for medical graduates a) their very expensive degree would worthless for practicing medicine until they found such a job and b) the government would have wasted half a million dollars of the taxpayers money, per graduate.
Thus, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the government to continue to find jobs for each medical graduate pumped out by our two medical schools.

I'm afraid medicine is quite a special case, primarily because the only employer straight out of medical school is the government who has already invested a lot of public money into each graduate. This money simply cannot be thrown away - the public would not accept it just for a bit of competition amongst med graduates. Thus, medicine it is not completely comparable to other fields and perhaps medicine might be an exception to the rule but that is simply the nature of the degree and the profession.

 

[Kiwiology]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to practice independently in NZ you need to have completed the supervised internship/PGY1 year in order to be accredited with the medical council. Therefore, if there were not enough jobs for medical graduates a) their very expensive degree would worthless for practicing medicine until they found such a job and b) the government would have wasted half a million dollars of the taxpayers money, per graduate. Thus, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the government to continue to find jobs for each medical graduate pumped out by our two medical schools.

I'm afraid medicine is quite a special case, primarily because the only employer straight out of medical school is the government who has already invested a lot of public money into each graduate. This money simply cannot be thrown away - the public would not accept it just for a bit of competition amongst med graduates. Thus, medicine it is not completely comparable to other fields and perhaps medicine might be an exception to the rule but that is simply the nature of the degree and the profession.

The requirements to be registered in a general scope of practice have recently been amended as the Medical Council makes changes to pre-vocational training in New Zealand along the lines of the Foundation Program in the UK (although thankfully we can learn from their mistakes).

The new requirements are specifically,

1. The (satisfactory) completion of four accredited clinical attachments.
2. The attainment of (all) learning outcomes outlined in the New Zealand Curriculum Framework
3. Completion of a minimum of 10 weeks in each attachment.
4. Recommendation for registration in a general scope of practice by a panel to include Intern Supervisor.
5. Approval of a PDP for PGY2, which will be completed during PGY2

For more information read this https://www.mcnz.org.nz/assets/News-and-Publications/Consultations/feedbackanddecisionsstage2.pdf

With regard to "competition" amongst medical graduates there is certainly no evidence that I am aware of that there is any benefit to this or that it makes for improved patient or system outcomes. At the moment there is a commitment from the Government that all domestic graduates who are citizens or residents will be employed and that should remain.

To anybody who believes creation of competition with the ideological or theoretical view that it somehow leads to increased quality of health services, I encourage you to read "Your health and the public health: a statement of government health policy" and "Crown Health Enterprises: Briefing to the incoming minister of health 1996" to see what a decade of forced "competition" in our health system did, not that the competition ever really arose and the whole thing was a complete failure.

 

[Lookup]

[offtopic]Intense debate, although probably deserves its own thread lol - when I look at the title of this one I just didn't anticipate being bombarded with walls of text. [/offtopic]

 

[lane]

Sorry, people. Next up: Learn to use the...

[OFFTOPIC]Test[/OFFTOPIC]

 

[zephyrm]

Hi @snow12flake
I'm currently in your position now, didn't do so well in UMAT and a slim possibility I get into Med in Otago.
I am also an Aucklander and my backup would probably be to head back up and do OLY1 or finish the BSc I started in Otago and apply for postgrad entry into Auckland and Otago med.
I was wondering what did you eventually choose to do and how is everything going for you?
I would be grateful if you would share some of your experiences.

Thanks

 

[Axwe8]

Hi @snow12flake
I'm currently in your position now, didn't do so well in UMAT and a slim possibility I get into Med in Otago.
I am also an Aucklander and my backup would probably be to head back up and do OLY1 or finish the BSc I started in Otago and apply for postgrad entry into Auckland and Otago med.
I was wondering what did you eventually choose to do and how is everything going for you?
I would be grateful if you would share some of your experiences.

Thanks

It's weird because some phone operators on the 0800 61 62 63 number say that you can enter this way after having finished HSFY, and the others that I spoke to say you can't "because it is an unfair advantage to others starting university".

 

[frootloop]

It's weird because some phone operators on the 0800 61 62 63 number say that you can enter this way after having finished HSFY, and the others that I spoke to say you can't "because it is an unfair advantage to others starting university".

Email the course convener-y person. That way you'll have it in writing, and it'll be from the person in charge rather than a random 0800 phone operator.

 

[zephyrm]

It's weird because some phone operators on the 0800 61 62 63 number say that you can enter this way after having finished HSFY, and the others that I spoke to say you can't "because it is an unfair advantage to others starting university".

Are you talking about doing OLY1? There are already quite a few people in MSO who've gone through this pathway I think.
But I think I'm going to finish off a BSc and try for postgrad med, it's a much safer option.

 

[Axwe8]

Are you talking about doing OLY1? There are already quite a few people in MSO who've gone through this pathway I think.
But I think I'm going to finish off a BSc and try for postgrad med, it's a much safer option.

Oh ok yes I was going on @lane 's second post about doing OLY 1 after this year hsfy. Yes postgrad is a much safer option, but my problem is not marks, its more a financial problem hence why I need to move to auckland.

 

[zephyrm]

Oh ok yes I was going on @lane 's second post about doing OLY 1 after this year hsfy. Yes postgrad is a much safer option, but my problem is not marks, its more a financial problem hence why I need to move to auckland.

Oh right. Yeah, it would be good to see a course advisor or even the MBChB admissions team in person or email them, just to make sure you're good to go and to have concrete answers to all of your questions.

 

[snow12flake]

@Axwe8 Hey! I am currently doing a BSc majoring in Pharmacology at UoA . My credits have been transferred from Otago, hence I started second year here. I didn't do OLY1 because I just wanted a safer option in case BioMed didn't work out for me . From what I've heard, the way they sturctre OLY1 is quite different to HSFY, so it may take a while for you to adjust - which may be risky if you are relying on it to get into med, however, Auckland has changed the interview structure to an MMI, which I think would be a little easier on the nerves, and also UMAT doesn't really count for as much as it does in Otago.

 

[Mana]

Hi there! Did anyone ever find out if it was ok to go from HSFY at Otago into OLY 1 at UoA?? My UMAT was pretty bad this year and I probably won't get into Med I'm looking for a short-cut way to get into Med pretty much; I don't want to spend 2 years doing post-grad.

I think you'll find there are no short-cuts to getting into medicine (and then no short-cuts after it either).

If you didn't get the scores required in high school, then you try for the scores required in HSFY (or another university course) to get into medicine.

If you don't get the scores required in HSFY (or another university course) then you'll have to attain it in the next university course, and so on.

The reality is that if you can't score competitively enough there is no shortage whatsoever of applicants who have put in the work to score competitively who will get in instead of you.

There should be no reason why you can't commence OLY1 at Auckland after finishing HSFY (other than poor marks) - but I would suggest that this is anything but a shortcut as a large majority of OLY1 students at Auckland don't get into medicine there either, and you'll be doing the 2 years for another attempt at graduate entry anyway.

 

[Ruth]

Hi there! Did anyone ever find out if it was ok to go from HSFY at Otago into OLY 1 at UoA?? My UMAT was pretty bad this year and I probably won't get into Med I'm looking for a short-cut way to get into Med pretty much; I don't want to spend 2 years doing post-grad.

With that atttitude I'm not sure you'd fare much better at Auckland.

But yes, you should be able to, I would email [email protected] to be sure though.

What if I've done a degree overseas? New Zealand and Australian permanent residents or citizens with degrees from universities other than New Zealand universities are required to either: Apply under the Overlapping Year One category Complete the first year of the BHSc or BScBiomedical Science at The University of Auckland and then compete for entry to medicine.

 

[Stuart]

How on earth did I miss the notifications for this thread! Also, why can't I see cutipie's posts...?

 

[cutiepie]

I'm sooo confused haha