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New Zealand Dentistry or Australian Med School?

EngisHard

Member
Hi all, very sorry I don't know if I should post this here but uhhhhh... I'm currently a high school student in Auckland, i was considering Australian Med schools recently due to their "prestigious" and "higher rankings"......but after some researches in the past few days, my mind has changed a little bit, as apparently that NZ students won't be guaranteed a job in Australia and also the ranking doesn't differ too much...

My backup plan was to study Dentistry at Otago, but I've heard it's super super competitive..... I'm not sure if this makes any sense but I feel like if you don't do well in high school, it kind of tells you that you shouldn't be going for such a competitive pathway.... especially when there's only like 50-60ish places...

My grades are sitting on 3 A stars and 1A in AS, 1 B in IG English. I didn't do IG English back in year 11 instead I chose to do NCEA and then due to some personal reasons I swapped to IG English in year 12... it's a real struggle for me to understand all those Shakespeare's and stuff and I assume that's the major reason why I'm getting B and C in English...

My predicated grade for A level is 3 A* in bio math and physics, 1 A in Chem and 1 C in AS English and I converted to Atar using a "guidebook" from online, it was sitting on 99.90 so I reckon maybe I have a chance of getting into Melb/UNSW. I am really keen to go to otago and study there for dentistry but at the same time i'm uncertain about my ability of getting in... so which one do I stand a better chance of getting in? Otago for dentistry or Australian med school ( UNSW, Melbs, not monash tho since my English grade won't even meet their minimum requirements lol... )

Sorry for typing so much and I don't even know if I'm posting at the right section :p , but yeah. would be great if someone replies to me and show me their opinions. Thanks
 

rustyedges

Moderator
Moderator
High school marks for zilch at Otago, and English isn't assessed at all. If you're getting A* in bio and physics, you can definitely be competitive enough for both dent and med.

Also, the prestige/ranking of a university is pretty useless (despite what the dogma at your Cambridge-teaching Auckland school may be :p ) , unless you're wanting to go to OxBridge or Harvard or something, and Australian and NZ med schools are fairly equivalent once you've graduated (the only difference being it would largely decide where you'd be able to find a job for the first few years of your career). They won't determine what you can and can't specialise and in, and generally won't affect how good of a doctor you could be.
 

EngisHard

Member
High school marks for zilch at Otago, and English isn't assessed at all. If you're getting A* in bio and physics, you can definitely be competitive enough for both dent and med.

Also, the prestige/ranking of a university is pretty useless (despite what the dogma at your Cambridge-teaching Auckland school may be :p ) , unless you're wanting to go to OxBridge or Harvard or something, and Australian and NZ med schools are fairly equivalent once you've graduated (the only difference being it would largely decide where you'd be able to find a job for the first few years of your career). They won't determine what you can and can't specialise and in, and generally won't affect how good of a doctor you could be.

Hi rustyedges :) . Thank you for your reply and help, haha yeah that kind of relieves me since I'm doing just a little bit above average in my cohort at school :p.

Also if I graduate in New Zealand as a dentist/ Surgeon , what's my chances of working overseas in countries like Canada Australia UK/USA?It would be great if I could live and work in different places and experience different cultures in the future :p. Thanks
 

rustyedges

Moderator
Moderator
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about working overseas afterwards, but I do know many doctors will do at least part of their post grad training overseas. I think USA is quite hard to work as a doctor if you haven't gone to med school there, and you have to do their licensing exams and jump through their hoops, but as far as I know it can be possible to work most other places.
 

EngisHard

Member
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about working overseas afterwards, but I do know many doctors will do at least part of their post grad training overseas. I think USA is quite hard to work as a doctor if you haven't gone to med school there, and you have to do their licensing exams and jump through their hoops, but as far as I know it can be possible to work most other places.

Yeah USA sounds very unique haha! Thank you very much sir ! :)
 

Kiwiology

MSO Lawyer
Also if I graduate in New Zealand as a dentist/ Surgeon , what's my chances of working overseas in countries like Canada Australia UK/USA?It would be great if I could live and work in different places and experience different cultures in the future :p. Thanks

Australia is fairly easy to get registered, you just have to register with the Medical Board of Australia via AHPRA and you're set. Canada I am not too sure about, provincial level, but not too hard I would imagine. Yes, the USA is quite difficult, you must have sat for and passed all three USMLE Exams and their training spots are brutally competitive because they don't have enough of them in the in-demand places cos they're funded off the back of Medicare or Medicaid (or both) mechanisms. Sure, you could probably do a year or so as a Fellow or something but you won't get a full training spot there unless you want to work in Neonatal Psychiatry in Twin Peaks, Washington or Geriatric Colorectal Oncology in Huckabee Falls, Montana, pop. 300, high -30°C.

Oh, and as for going to AU med school, essentially impossible now for a Kiwi due to law changes removing CSPs for Kiwis so you have to pay full international fees plus living costs, so unless your parents have a spare $250,000 ... plus plus internship crisis so yeah, not a good move. Have a look on this forum for some more information but essentially not a good idea.
 

EngisHard

Member
Australia is fairly easy to get registered, you just have to register with the Medical Board of Australia via AHPRA and you're set. Canada I am not too sure about, provincial level, but not too hard I would imagine. Yes, the USA is quite difficult, you must have sat for and passed all three USMLE Exams and their training spots are brutally competitive because they don't have enough of them in the in-demand places cos they're funded off the back of Medicare or Medicaid (or both) mechanisms. Sure, you could probably do a year or so as a Fellow or something but you won't get a full training spot there unless you want to work in Neonatal Psychiatry in Twin Peaks, Washington or Geriatric Colorectal Oncology in Huckabee Falls, Montana, pop. 300, high -30°C.

Oh, and as for going to AU med school, essentially impossible now for a Kiwi due to law changes removing CSPs for Kiwis so you have to pay full international fees plus living costs, so unless your parents have a spare $250,000 ... plus plus internship crisis so yeah, not a good move. Have a look on this forum for some more information but essentially not a good idea.

I've heard that Australia tends to choose Australia trained doctors over NZ trained ones but yeah will be great if they treat us equally :). Also is the new policy gonna rise the fee to 250k? I was thinking that it would rise the tuition fee to some ridiculous high price like 500k..... but yeah it's definitely not worth it if I could make it into dentistry/med school here lol hahaha :) . Anyways thanks for your help sir, appreciate it :).
 

A1

Rookie Doc
Moderator
Oh, and as for going to AU med school, essentially impossible now for a Kiwi due to law changes removing CSPs for Kiwis so you have to pay full international fees

Int'l fees are around twice the (HECS + CSP Subsidy), the gov wants to remove the subsidy but we don't know what the unis will want to charge NZ students. If the latter it's 35k times 5-6 years and can go on FEE-HELP.

@EH you mentioned Melb & Unsw. Independent of the CSP change I think NZ students are not eligible for the Melb 99.90 program. And for Unsw 99.90 doesn't guarantee a place, you still need decent Umat & interview scores to get in.
 

Kiwiology

MSO Lawyer
I've heard that Australia tends to choose Australia trained doctors over NZ trained ones but yeah will be great if they treat us equally :)

Sadly, this seems to be true with the student tsunami in Australia. I do not know the specifics for each state, look up their priority rankings for internships, and you will very likely find in most (if not all) they only offer guaranteed places to AU grads (and perhaps only internal state grads) who are also AU citizens or permanent residents (NZers on an SCV don't count as PRs).

If you go to AU you're also at a big disadvantage here applying for a House Surgeon post because ACE gives a lower priority to AU grads; I think it's about the third or fourth off the top of my head.

Best just to stay in NZ if you want to do med my friend :)
 

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EngisHard

Member
Int'l fees are around twice the (HECS + CSP Subsidy), the gov wants to remove the subsidy but we don't know what the unis will want to charge NZ students. If the latter it's 35k times 5-6 years and can go on FEE-HELP.

@EH you mentioned Melb & Unsw. Independent of the CSP change I think NZ students are not eligible for the Melb 99.90 program. And for Unsw 99.90 doesn't guarantee a place, you still need decent Umat & interview scores to get in.

Oh well if what you said for Melb is true that's gonna be a huge disadvantage for NZ students who plan to study in Melb but yeah. I've heard that UNSW requires a decent UMAT and interview as well as good high school grades but at least they are one year shorter than that 7 years programme , but yeah it might be still hard. Thank you for your reply! :)
 
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EngisHard

Member
Sadly, this seems to be true with the student tsunami in Australia. I do not know the specifics for each state, look up their priority rankings for internships, and you will very likely find in most (if not all) they only offer guaranteed places to AU grads (and perhaps only internal state grads) who are also AU citizens or permanent residents (NZers on an SCV don't count as PRs).

If you go to AU you're also at a big disadvantage here applying for a House Surgeon post because ACE gives a lower priority to AU grads; I think it's about the third or fourth off the top of my head.

Best just to stay in NZ if you want to do med my friend :)

Oh well yeah haha, the major reason why i'm scared to do med here is mainly due to how talented and diligent many students are, also the minor reason is that I was uncertain if NZ doctors can work overseas or not ( even though I'm sure I will come back sooner or later since this is my home :p ), but yeah it sounds like "trained in NZ" is so much better than "NZ kids trained in Australia" at the stage so yeah that's great :). Thanks Kiwiology!
 
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DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
I can assure you many (most) Aussie med students are also "talented and diligent". If you want a degree/class where students are neither of those things, then I don't think Medicine is for you, anywhere in the world.
 

EngisHard

Member
I can assure you many (most) Aussie med students are also "talented and diligent". If you want a degree/class where students are neither of those things, then I don't think Medicine is for you, anywhere in the world.

Oh sorry I didn't mean that Aussie med students are less "talented and diligent" or anything, I just wanted to say that since NZ med schools require your HSFY/OLY1 result rather than some aussie med schools which guarantees your entry straight from high school , it adds more uncertainties to me since I doubt if I could perform better in UNI first year than in high school :p, but yeah I feel like either ways are challenging and opportunistic and choosing med is choosing to compete with some of the most elite students out there. " Every new challenge brings new opportunities". Thanks for your reply LMG :).
 
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DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
Oh sorry I didn't mean that Aussie med students are less "talented and diligent" or anything, I just wanted to say that since NZ med schools require your HSFY/OLY1 result rather than some aussie med schools which guarantees your entry straight from high school , it adds more uncertainties to me since I doubt if I could perform better in UNI first year than in high school :p, but yeah I feel like either ways are challenging and opportunistic and choosing med is choosing to compete with some of the most elite students out there. " Every new challenge brings new opportunities". Thanks for your reply sir :).

Aussie med schools don't "guarantee your entry straight from high school", students themselves do this by achieving at a ridiculously high level and meeting or exceeding requirements.

You're right that all routes to medicine are challenging.

FYI: I'd quickly lose that "sir" sign-off assumption, if I were you. They let females study medicine and join Internet forums and everything these days... Crazy, I know.
 

EngisHard

Member
Aussie med schools don't "guarantee your entry straight from high school", students themselves do this by achieving at a ridiculously high level and meeting or exceeding requirements.

You're right that all routes to medicine are challenging.

FYI: I'd quickly lose that "sir" sign-off assumption, if I were you. They let females study medicine and join Internet forums and everything these days... Crazy, I know.

Oh well I'm very sorry for using the word "sir",It's wrong to assume someone's gender and I apologise for doing so. Thanks for the fast reply :) , LMG.
 

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Kiwiology

MSO Lawyer
As @frootloop has said elsewhere, and I agree with him, getting in via First Year or HSFY is not impossible, clearly, yes, it takes hard work, but I think the terror a few high schoolers on MSO have displayed for it is overrated TBH. Going to Australia as a way to "short-circuit" becoming a doc without having to do FY/HSFY is a really bad idea because it puts you, in short, in medical no-mans land when it comes to getting an internship/House Surgeon job on either side of the Tasman, and with the changes to CSPs means you will end up paying far more, plus having to self-fund your living costs as you won't be able to get Aus-study, and heaven forbid something goes wrong, you're ineligible for essentially all Centrelink/social services and I doubt you'd be able to "transfer in" to the Otago or Auckland MBChB so you'd have a huge debt for nothing.
 

EngisHard

Member
As @frootloop has said elsewhere, and I agree with him, getting in via First Year or HSFY is not impossible, clearly, yes, it takes hard work, but I think the terror a few high schoolers on MSO have displayed for it is overrated TBH. Going to Australia as a way to "short-circuit" becoming a doc without having to do FY/HSFY is a really bad idea because it puts you, in short, in medical no-mans land when it comes to getting an internship/House Surgeon job on either side of the Tasman, and with the changes to CSPs means you will end up paying far more, plus having to self-fund your living costs as you won't be able to get Aus-study, and heaven forbid something goes wrong, you're ineligible for essentially all Centrelink/social services and I doubt you'd be able to "transfer in" to the Otago or Auckland MBChB so you'd have a huge debt for nothing.

Oh god it sounds like a pretty bad idea to study Med in Australia then.... but I will definitely try to keep both options open if possible because future might be unpredictable but yeah at the stage I think the practical choice for me would be heading to Otago and really dive my head deep into the HSFY haha :) . Thank you so much for your help and reply kiwiology!
 

Kiwiology

MSO Lawyer
Oh god it sounds like a pretty bad idea to study Med in Australia then.... but I will definitely try to keep both options open if possible because future might be unpredictable but yeah at the stage I think the practical choice for me would be heading to Otago and really dive my head deep into the HSFY haha :) . Thank you so much for your help and reply kiwiology!

Yes, sadly as a general rule, the old "as a Kiwi I can just go to Australia to study/work/live and things'll be sweet" days are over and it is especially unwise as a medical student as well given the issues outlined above. My mate did go to Australia to do his MBBS at UQ and I was strongly considering going because that is where I got the most favourable GPA conversion but at the end of the day it wasn't financially practical for me and now, several years later, with the internship tsunami, probably best I didn't go. As you say, just go down to Dunners and get stuck into HSFY and you should be sweet.
 

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