USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

Discussion in 'General Dentistry Discussion' started by DDest, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. BillyB

    BillyB Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I see what you are saying, yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work. The reason this is possible is because those people have done proper OMS training overseas, in effect, they are oral and maxillofacial surgeons and as you say it is only politics stopping them from being able to register as such. However, my comments are in specific reference to this new Sydney course. This course does not intend to train oral and maxillofacial surgeons, it intends to train oral surgeons. That is the difference versus the overseas courses. And that is why I believe their scope will be limited.


    Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery)
    The Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery) will develop your skills in the surgical management of the full range of oral diseases in hospital and non-hospital settings, complemented by a research project in the field of oral surgery and oral pathology under the supervision of an academic staff member.

    note the intention of the course. To make you proficient in oral stuff. Not maxillofacial stuff.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    DDest and Smith88 like this.
  2. Smith88

    Smith88 Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Exactly.

    The DClinDent is a great option for those who wish to train as oral surgeons without completing medicine. (which is actually the norm in most of the world)
    OMS ... even the dual RACDS track is still a specialty of Dentistry don't forget.
    ... and as we agreed: The core of the OMS work is the same whether or not you have a medical degree.

    For those that wish to gain more experience in other areas a Fellowship is the usual route.
    Many surgeons (from all specialties : plastics, ENT, OMS, general surgery, paediatric surgery, etc) often complete complete fellowships after training to widen their scope in an area of interest (even the RACDS - dual qualified OMS grads often do this).

    It is good that we have options for dental graduates in Australia. Some may wish to complete a single qualified track +/- Fellowship ; and some may wish to complete a dual qualified track +/- Fellowship. It all depends on what area of practice you enjoy most. I do agree however that it definitely helps to have a medical degree if you want to practice the wider scope of OMS. And for some people they may prefer that route.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    DDest likes this.
  3. BillyB

    BillyB Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    The important point is that this USYD course isn't a OMS training program and it shouldn't be confused with one.

    This course trains people in teeth/oral surgery (extractions, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery). They can't use this degree as a base to 'upgrade' their skills to a full OMS either - it doesn't work that way.

    If one wants to practice the proper scope of an oral and maxillofacial, they still either have to do the dual degree pathway here in Australia, or do a formal OMS training program overseas and then use the 'back door' AHPRA trick. But dual-qualification is now considered the standard unless you were trained pre 1995, so IMO one really does need to a have a medical degree and FRACDS to 'keep up' with their peers and remain respected over the course of a 20-40 year career (unless they are happy just doing teeth/dental stuff in private practice type setting)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  4. Smith88

    Smith88 Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    You mean registration as an oral surgeon (with a wide clinical experience)? Yes.

    Yes.

    Really? ...because Fellowships post specialty can be a way to increase clinical exposure and scope for any surgeon. The RACDS - OMS grads do this all the time as I have pointed out.

    I think that speaks volumes about many people's viewpoints on this issue. Thanks for that.

    Honestly, I know many single qualified Oral surgeons/OMS who are very respected and very qualified surgeons.


    Look I have never stated that the DClinDent in OS at Otago or Sydney trains for or should prepare people for full head and neck OMS surgery. I'm not trying to argue this point.

    My point is: 1) Many OMS (dual degree or not) are not interested in doing expanded scope head and neck cancer or cleft/craniofacial surgery as the bulk of the work is dento-avleloar anyways.
    Again.. don't forget that even if an RACDS - OMS who graduated with a medical degree wanted to do this type of expanded scope work. They too usually require another 1-2 year fellowship in these areas after RACDS-OMS training in order to do it.
    The Core procedures are the same : wisdom teeth, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery, orthodontic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

    Additionally, 2) there is nothing wrong with a graduate of a DClinDent (or any surgical program) expanding their skill set after graduation in an area of interest.

    I still agree that if someone knows from the outset that they want to do cancer surgery and cleft/craniofacial or facial cosmetic then they should be doing a medical degree and the RACDS program not the DClinDent. Again, it depends on what your goals are. I agree with you here.

    The important point here is that: Selection of a training path is a personal decision. There are pros/cons to both training paths. But these are paths that should compliment/support each other, not divide the specialty.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    DDest likes this.
  5. Smith88

    Smith88 Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I am an Australian graduate who is now completing OMS in the states. If I were to move back to Australia to practice I would be registered as an oral surgeon (which I have no problem with btw). However I believe I am at a great training program that is training us in the full scope of OMS. Our program director is in fact a single degree OMS who has also completed a fellowship in Head/Neck microvascular surgery.

    Where I am training they offer both single and dual degree options and the residents in both programs train along side each other for the same procedures. No one has any issue or less respect for the people in the other program. We are all oral and maxillofacial surgeons. Looking back at the bubble that is Australia from the outside I can see that the politics of our speciality there are often petty and I'm hoping things will change in the future.
     
    DDest and Sassysep like this.
  6. BillyB

    BillyB Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    With regard to Point 1: I'll say again: this USYD course will not enable graduates to do facial trauma - it is simply not part of the course goals. "Oral Surgery" in Australia has a very specific definition and this course has been designed and credentialed against that specific definition. "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery" is considered a separate specialty and has its own definition which is much broader.

    One way to understand this course is to compare it to all the other dental specialties (eg endodontics, orthodontics, periodontics etc). They get all their patients from dentist referrals and they all sit in a dental office and confine their practice to a specific area of dentistry confined to the oral cavity more or less. If that's what someone wants then they should go for it, there is great potential for success if one has the passion for that area.


    With regard to point 2: Advanced training posts are rare and in Australia, you need a strong background of surgical experience (eg ENT, plastics) to get into one. Being extremely well trained and proficient in intra-oral surgery but having little other experience is unlikely to cut it. I'm just being realistic here.

    Because of your OMS training overseas, you may very well get a hospital consulting position as an OMS in Australia and be able to use that to get extra credentialing in H&N etc, and I hope you do, however, this USYD course is not the same at all.
     
    applecider likes this.
  7. BillyB

    BillyB Member

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Just to summarise the situation here in Australia:

    There are two distinct specialties
    1. Oral Surgery
    -Requires a dental degree and a postgraduate degree to specialise
    -Courses available: DClinDent (USYD) and one in NZ
    -Graduates are not trained in surgery of the broader maxillofacial area (eg no facial trauma)
    - Graduates will likely work in private dental specialist practices or in public dental hospitals hired as dental specialists

    2. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery
    -you need both medical and dental degrees and be registered with RACDS
    -the scope includes everything in (1) + maxillofacial work
    -you can expand your scope in the head and neck region further by doing extra formal training on top

    Option 3. Go overseas and complete complete a training program in Oral & Maxillofacial surgery and come back to Australia
    - you can only register as an Oral surgeon and you can't legally call yourself an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, despite the fact that you are fully trained as one overseas
    -technically you may be able to practice the full scope of OMS, however, my understanding is that OMS positions in public hospitals generally require registration as an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, but happy to be corrected by anyone with experience. In any case, the opportunities may be less, as an example, this position requires RACDS:
    https://nswhealth.erecruit.com.au/ViewPosition.aspx?id=93231
    i.e you have the skills, but may be difficult to get the job/position to fully utilise them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
    DDest likes this.
  8. Smith88

    Smith88 Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thanks.

    Yes, that is what I have been told as well. Regardless of which specialty classification I am registered as (oral surgeon/OMS), if I can demonstrate that I have completed formal training in full scope OMS procedures (overseas) then I will be able to obtain privileges to perform these if/when I return. So it really doesn't matter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017

Share This Page