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UoA MBChB Entry - General Discussion and Questions

lamington

Member
`Just because people are querying doesn't mean anything is actually happening.'

That is in fact the problem. AskAuckland `aims' to respond within 2 working days. It has been more than 2 working days since I requested information as to:

1) What is the reason for declining my application?
2) What is the appeals process?

Just like how another University `tries' to conclude the examination process within 3 months -- but then takes the first week looking for a reason not to send a submitted thesis out for examination and the second report comes back a week late.

`It seems that no one concluded that your thesis was acceptable even after revisions suggested by the examiner?'

Yes. But they are required to base the outcome of examination on the reports of the examiners. The only outcome of examination in the Calendar that is consistent with the reports of the examiners (and the fact that they did not return the thesis to the candidate) is that a substantively revised thesis be accepted within 10 weeks. They have no grounds to have refused to accept a substantively revised thesis from me within 10 weeks. They have no grounds to say `your revised thesis isn't suuuuuuuuuubstaaaaaaantively revised enough'. The examiners did not return the thesis to the candidate. The examiners did not say I was required to re-enrol or re-submit. The University has no grounds to detain me. The University has no grounds to invoice additional fees. The University has no grounds to force continued labor.

These are public Universities. They cannot withhold entry to programs or withhold conferring degrees unless they have reasons. What are they waiting for? Bribes?

My dates are 2018 in the first paragraph. 2019 in the third.
 

Pump

Regular Member
They have no grounds to have refused to accept a substantively revised thesis from me within 10 weeks

but that's assuming that the substantively revised thesis was substantively revised to an acceptable standard right? Did they say that the revised thesis was?
 

lordgarlic

MSO Kiwi #1
Emeritus Staff
I think you need to remember that the university is going into the holiday period where a lot of people are off. Generally within 2 working days I would assume are during the semester when staff are around?

I also can't follow your dates reading it and equally confused trying to understand it.

While the examiners didn't say you need to re-enrol or re-submit, the reality is that they didn't pass your thesis no matter how you try to argue it. Being told to do revisions is essentially saying that you have a conditional pass pending X very similar to publishing journals in articles. They will accept but barrage you with revisions and the process is not concluded until they go "you've passed/we've accepted it".

I know it's frustrating, but the reality is that this is the machinations of the university. I presume there is some clause where you need to be enrolled to submit the revised thesis (e.g. still on the program) hence getting your to continue your enrolment.

"It was a shame for me to learn that University employees did not believe they had fiduciary duty. I thought their job was to help me. They thought their job was to try and stop me even if it meant misleading me, misinforming me, or even violating their own regulations. "

I'm sorry you feel that way but frankly its' almost delusional to believe that they have fiduciary duty to you. Your research supervisor will have a duty to supervise your research and support you on your thesis, but you are an adult. I don't think anyone would be bothered to just chase you and 'violate' their own regulations.

Reading between the lines, I have to ask, is your thesis actually at the acceptable standard at this point? clearly it doesn't sound like the examiners believe this....
 

lamington

Member
The only outcome of examination from the Calendar that is based on the reports of the examiners requires the University to accept a substantively updated thesis from me within 10 weeks of the outcome of examination in fulfilment of regulations for the Degree.

There is no basis for the University to require re-enrolment, re-examination, oral defence, or for the University to refuse to sign off on a thesis presented to them for sign off within 10 weeks.

The University doesn't get to reject the reports of the examiners. The University doesn't get to re-examine my thesis (for whether it is 'substaaaaantively altered enough'). It has BEEN examined. The examiners supplied many many many suggestions of things they felt could make it better.

Some (but not all) of what they suggested very clearly (to my mind) would make it better. I did all of that to the best of my ability because I am a grown-up who would like for her work to be as good as she can get it in the available time.

It is common practice for Universities to bully students out of credit for their research outputs. Which, given that Universities are partly funded on the basis of research outputs) is sheer insanity.
 

DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
The only outcome of examination from the Calendar that is based on the reports of the examiners requires the University to accept a substantively updated thesis from me within 10 weeks of the outcome of examination in fulfilment of regulations for the Degree.

There is no basis for the University to require re-enrolment, re-examination, oral defence, or for the University to refuse to sign off on a thesis presented to them for sign off within 10 weeks.

The University doesn't get to reject the reports of the examiners. The University doesn't get to re-examine my thesis (for whether it is 'substaaaaantively altered enough'). It has BEEN examined. The examiners supplied many many many suggestions of things they felt could make it better.

Some (but not all) of what they suggested very clearly (to my mind) would make it better. I did all of that to the best of my ability because I am a grown-up who would like for her work to be as good as she can get it in the available time.

It is common practice for Universities to bully students out of credit for their research outputs. Which, given that Universities are partly funded on the basis of research outputs) is sheer insanity.

It may well be different in NZ, but a friend of mine in Aus was required to make substantive changes to her thesis (I know because I helped her work through them), and once those changes were made it had to be re-submitted and re-marked. The re-mark was internal (rather than the initial x2 external examinations), but it still had to happen. It wasn’t just a matter of making changes, handing it in, and assuming it was all hunky dory. She also had to supply a document detailing how she’d addressed the initial external examiner’s suggested revisions (it was only one of her two external examiners who required revisions in order to pass the thesis).

The internal re-mark contained one or two additional suggestions in line with those from the external examiner, which she then further made, before the thesis was signed off.

Are you saying the re-mark (? I might be using incorrect terminology here) shouldn’t have been necessary? That she should have been able to make changes and have no one check them? Just pass the thesis automatically?
 

lordgarlic

MSO Kiwi #1
Emeritus Staff
I agree with LMG!

In every academic institution I've been in, if you submit something and get revisions given back, you have to resubmit, then it is reassessed

You don't just get something signed off because you resubmitted the first time. It will be reviewed again, and further suggestions may be required. This is how academia works

I hate to break it to you, the fact is that you left submitting the thesis till the last days (I know you gave yourself the 10 week window) but that assumes you would pass it immediately. You didn't. So now you have to go through the process every other student who submits a thesis goes through
 

lamington

Member
One needs to consult the regulations that govern the Degree in the initial year of enrolment in the Degree at the institution that one enroled in. Different Universities have different regulations. I do not know whether your friend was required by regulations to have the thesis re-submitted and re-examined or whether employees of the University simply decided amongst themselves that this would be a good idea and led her to believe that this was required when it really was not. One would need to consult the Regulations to know.

I am tired of the bullying culture where University employees think that there is some kind of trophy or kudos status for having students work in significant excess of what they are in fact required to do. This is particularly a problem in the Arts where a project that is supposed to be 1 or 3 years of study only takes 2 or 3 or 5 or even 6 years before the student is signed off.

Turns out my supervisor only agreed to supervise me because she didn't think that I was allowed to submit a thesis for examination without her permission -- and she never intended on granting me permission to submit in the minimum standard or normal time. So I submitted without her permission and they scurried about for a week looking for a regulation that meant they didn't have to send it out for examination at all (but didn't manage to find one).

I am asking to be treated differently from how many students are in fact treated. I am asking to be treated how everyone is *supposed to be treated*. I wouldn't wish differently for anybody else.

Anyway, I have been informed of the attached appeal procedure. Presumably it isn't an appeals procedure that only applies for me. I have supplied it since people should be able to access it in a timely fashion and not have to beg for access to it. Once I have been supplied with the reasons why the University thinks it can refuse me entry to the Degree I guess I do more appeals. Yay.

Sorry for taking up so much space on this thread. I didn't meant to dominate / take over. I think my presence here helped the appeals procedure be available sooner than it otherwise would have been.
 

Attachments

  • FMHS Appeal Procedure for UG and Limited Entry Admissions_December 2019.pdf
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lordgarlic

MSO Kiwi #1
Emeritus Staff
"Turns out my supervisor only agreed to supervise me because she didn't think that I was allowed to submit a thesis for examination without her permission -- and she never intended on granting me permission to submit in the minimum standard or normal time. So I submitted without her permission and they scurried about for a week looking for a regulation that meant they didn't have to send it out for examination at all (but didn't manage to find one).'

I think unfortunately this paragraph sums it up for me. Your supervisor in some ways is responsible for your research and guiding you. Similar to a line manager in any company, or your consultant in hospital if you are an RMO. If the supervisor's name is anywhere near it, or if people know she/he supervised do you not think they would want to know? If I was supervising a student for a research project (which I can do as a consultant) I would expect the student to run the final version with me and drafts with me before submitting.

Furthermore why would you submit a thesis in the minimum standard..... especially if you don't pass first time you'll have revisions to do exactly like the situation you've found yourself in now....
 

Pump

Regular Member
she never intended on granting me permission to submit in the minimum standard or normal time
If the supervisor's name is anywhere near it, or if people know she/he supervised do you not think they would want to know?

This is what I don't understand. So she explicitly stated she wasn't intending to grant permission in the "minimum standard or normal time?" A supervisor's ability to guide students through the research process, from conception of idea --> final product, is scrutinised because it's a reflection of themselves as a leader. Goes on their CVs, helps in getting future grants + students and therefore further research under their name, which is what academics generally want. I find it really surprisingly that a supervisor took you on and then decided not to let you complete your thesis with no apparent reason.

they scurried about for a week looking for a regulation that meant they didn't have to send it out for examination at all (but didn't manage to find one).

How did you come to this conclusion? Or is this just your perception of events?

I am asking to be treated differently from how many students are in fact treated. I am asking to be treated how everyone is *supposed to be treated*. I wouldn't wish differently for anybody else.

I still don't know ... With all the confusing timeline aside, it seems like you submitted your thesis, got asked to revise it as it was not initially acceptable. Then you revised it but you did not receive confirmation that it was of an acceptable standard. You are challenging this as the regulations did not mention that subsequent revisions had to be of an acceptable standard.

Is that right? because if so, that's insane for reasons lordgarlic said above re: resubmission, reassesment etc. It really does sound like you're looking for a scapegoat other than yourself for this situation that you have found yourself in.
 

lamington

Member
Biological science has a culture whereby timely completion is more likely to be valued. Arts and social science has a culture whereby keeping students as hostages for the maximum amount of time has become the cultural norm. Arts supervisors say that arts students cannot complete their work in a timely fashion like they do over in the sciences. They say that the arts is not like that. External examiners (who did not know how long I had been labouring) decided that only 10 weeks more labor was required, however. Examiners are required to be independent from the University and (in one instance) from the country. I did not decide whether my work is good enough. My supervisor does not get to decide whether my work (actually our work) is good enough. The University does not get to decide whether the thesis is good enough. Examiners decide. If people go 'why is that thesis lodged in the library?' the appropriate response is: Regulations required us to lodge it in the library in fulfilment of regulations for the Degree. Regulations require them to base the outcome of examination on the reports of examiners and Calendar Regulations. I don't understand why this is so hard for people. If the examiners required me to re-enrol with the University and continue to labor for more than 10 weeks then regulations required them to return the thesis to the candidate and to say this in their reports.

Imagine if Otago decided not just to withhold Degrees from people who hadn't completed the requirements for the Degree -- but decided to withhold Degrees from people who had completed the requirements for the Degree.

I did not get to graduate. But I met requirements for the Degree.

What the hell is going on with NZ Universities where students who don't do the work get Degrees and students who do do the work don't get Degrees...

Lordgarlic - Regulations required me to work under the supervision. I have email records of all supervisory correspondance. I did send work to my supervisor regularly for feedback / comments. I did my best to do everything she asked me to do -- except submit my thesis late. It was on my timeline all year that I intended to submit 3 months prior to December 7, 2019. I asked her how soon she needed drafts to sign me off and her response is 'holiday -- see ya'. That is when I learned she wasn't required to sign me off in order for me to submit for examination. Your University may be different.

phalo - I did regularly send my supervisor work as I was required to labor under supervision. In my 6 monthly report (requested to complete September / October 2018) my supervisor stated my progress was satisfactory and I was working harder than she thought I would. She also stated that it could be better with continued labor, however, and my 6 monthly report stated on it that 30 June 2019 was my submission date. For me to submit on that date means the University decided they would deliver 're-enrol for at least 6 months' outcome before my thesis had even been given to examiners in 2018. In other words, the decision to have me re-enrol and re-submit was not a decision that was based on the reports of the examiners. They University doesn't get to decide 'yay' or 'boo' by way of mob mentality, however. Regulations require them to base the outcome of examination on reports of examiners who are external to the University and (in one instance) to the country of NZ. The Universities would likely not release their slaves, otherwise.

Pump -- I don't really understand why my supervisor and the University isn't pleased as punch that they got a student through in a swiftly fashion. I suspect the problem is that they are concerned that people will think they are a crappy University if they let my thesis through. And they think my thesis could be better with continued labor. And it would be. But that is irrelevant / besides the point.

The point is that regulations require the University to base the outcome of examination on reports of examiners that are external to the University and to NZ in one instance. People should be going 'what kind of crap University is this that refuses to do what regulations require and sign their students off when this is what the examiners have indicated to the University.

I did my work. They are required to sign me off.

I am sad that students are inclined to mob each other.
 

lamington

Member
If I have one thing I did wrong it was that I began working on my thesis under supervision before my enrolment was approved.

This does violate Calendar Regulations.

I did not know that it violated Calendar Regulations because I thought that (as in the case of undergraduate Degrees) enrolments were not required to be finalised until a week or two after class had started.

It turns out that that is false, however, and I should not have begun working under supervison from March 5, 2018. But that is in fact what I did. I have email correspondance to and from my supervisor on March 5 and March 6 and supervised work had begun.

We did both know that regulations required the University to admit me to the Degree, however. There wasn't any way they could refuse my enrolment.

So instead they choose to hold up processing.

What is the timeline on appeals process?

The University of Auckland did not tell me within 2 working days in writing what the reasons were whereby the University declined me a place in MBChB. I am still waiting to hear the reasons for it being declined so I can articulate the process that has been violated in my appeal.

If they take 15 working days here and 15 working days there then what is the goal here? To delay processing past... February... What is the aribtrary date whereby no new enrolments will be allowed? When is the last possible time they are allowed to enrol a new student in order to meet the quota for the year?

Apparently we have shortage of GPs. So trained Americans come here wanting to help us out. FInd that their application to work as GPs just doesn't get processed.

Nobody perceives corruption. Really. This is just how we do it? Where are the research outputs of the University? In case people haven't noticed this is how we do not do it. This is how research outputs have been slowed / have ceased.

I am so tired of people choosing not to sign me off / process my work because they don't like my face or for whatever reason. Because of their preference to expediate the journey of their own kids...

I did the work. My Degree should in fact have been conferred already. I am almost certain I should have received offer of place for MBChB. But if I *enjoy* reading Medicine I am sure I should be forced to write appeals. ffs.
 

014phalo

Regular Member
If I have one thing I did wrong it was that I began working on my thesis under supervision before my enrolment was approved.

This does violate Calendar Regulations.

I did not know that it violated Calendar Regulations because I thought that (as in the case of undergraduate Degrees) enrolments were not required to be finalised until a week or two after class had started.

It turns out that that is false, however, and I should not have begun working under supervison from March 5, 2018. But that is in fact what I did. I have email correspondance to and from my supervisor on March 5 and March 6 and supervised work had begun.

We did both know that regulations required the University to admit me to the Degree, however. There wasn't any way they could refuse my enrolment.

So instead they choose to hold up processing.

What is the timeline on appeals process?

The University of Auckland did not tell me within 2 working days in writing what the reasons were whereby the University declined me a place in MBChB. I am still waiting to hear the reasons for it being declined so I can articulate the process that has been violated in my appeal.

If they take 15 working days here and 15 working days there then what is the goal here? To delay processing past... February... What is the aribtrary date whereby no new enrolments will be allowed? When is the last possible time they are allowed to enrol a new student in order to meet the quota for the year?

Apparently we have shortage of GPs. So trained Americans come here wanting to help us out. FInd that their application to work as GPs just doesn't get processed.

Nobody perceives corruption. Really. This is just how we do it? Where are the research outputs of the University? In case people haven't noticed this is how we do not do it. This is how research outputs have been slowed / have ceased.

I am so tired of people choosing not to sign me off / process my work because they don't like my face or for whatever reason. Because of their preference to expediate the journey of their own kids...

I did the work. My Degree should in fact have been conferred already. I am almost certain I should have received offer of place for MBChB. But if I *enjoy* reading Medicine I am sure I should be forced to write appeals. ffs.

I'm unsure what relevance you beginning your work before admittance has to do with your current predicament? That planning work you describe is somewhat of a necessity to ensure that your planned research is appropriate, which requires departmental sign off before enrollment. Your replies in this thread seem quite discombobulated to me. I wish you all the best, and hopefully you'll have it sorted soon.
 

Crow

Staff | Junior Doctor
Moderator
A reminder to all: one of our most important rules is to be civil.

On MSO we pride ourselves on providing constructive and helpful advice to others in a civilised manner. Sometimes, in order to provide constructive advice, I agree that a more direct approach is required - however, we should never resort to insults or personal attacks. This achieves nothing and creates a negative atmosphere on MSO.

After discussion with staff, we have decided to delete the off-topic posts. Please ensure any further posts are relevant to the thread.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to making MSO what it is today, and to those who help us moderate the site by alerting us to posts that require our attention.

Congratulations to all who have recently received offers and best of luck to those on the wait list. :)
 

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Applied for: MBChB
FY/Graduate: Graduate
GPA: 8.56
UCAT scaled score: 2480 (51st percentile for UCAT ANZ)
RRAS: No
UTAS: No
MAPAS: No
Interview: Completed
Offer: Accepted
Hi bat123, Did you get your bahcelors degree from UoA? My UCAT is also 51% . I will be entering FY this year . I took the UCAT as I was trying to get in Australia Uni. Thinking of getting a degree and going for graduate entry instead as i am stressed out with the UCAT and want to take a break from it as i find it very hard.
 

Avatar Aang

UoA MBChB IV
Hi bat123, Did you get your bahcelors degree from UoA? My UCAT is also 51% . I will be entering FY this year . I took the UCAT as I was trying to get in Australia Uni. Thinking of getting a degree and going for graduate entry instead as i am stressed out with the UCAT and want to take a break from it as i find it very hard.
Iam not bat123 but I would advise trying your best in FY and using graduate as your back up because working very hard for 1 year is better than working very hard for 3 years. If it’s ucat you are worried about then I don’t think it’s that big of a deal compared to your gpa and interview in UoA...and I’m sure you will only improve this year wen u give it a second go. Better to start working on things like your reading speed for sections like VR because they take time to improve (I learned tht the hard way). UoA only uses your raw score for ucat rather than your percentile so the difference between a 50th percentile candidate and a 90th percentile is not as big (you can easily make up for tht with your gpa and interview.

P.s. I had 2550 (62nd percentile, so not that much difference between your score and mine)

If you have any other questions let me know.
 
Hi bat123, Did you get your bahcelors degree from UoA? My UCAT is also 51% . I will be entering FY this year . I took the UCAT as I was trying to get in Australia Uni. Thinking of getting a degree and going for graduate entry instead as i am stressed out with the UCAT and want to take a break from it as i find it very hard.
I agree with the Avatar. Try ur best to get three a+ for the cores in sem 1. If you want any free advice, flick me a message. Iam happy to help anyone who needs help.
 

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