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USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

Thanks again for the lengthy reply Smith88. Appreciate the valuable insights you're giving.

As long as you are a registered specialist OS or OMS (doesn't matter which); AND as long as you can demonstrate competence in the procedures you wish to perform (i.e. you can show you have been formally trained to do them and you have a logbook with sufficient cases) then you can get credentialed to do the same thing (practice the same scope).


It won't matter if you complete your training in the USA, South Africa, or Singapore. If you return to Australia after any of these programs (without med degree) you will be considered for the OS category not OMS (unless you have fulfilled a couple extra tick-boxes). But again, it depends on exactly what your goals are. As I've already pointed out, for most things this does not make a difference OS / OMS in Australia or NZ!

I've been seriously looking into training overseas now, but theres some areas I'm a bit confused about.
While you may be able to demonstrate competence in performing the procedures that you were trained in overseas wouldn't there be regulatory/red tape issues to get through to perform the same procedures here in Australia?

For example

1. Would Australian public hospitals actually take on an OS without a medical degree over an OMS who is dual qualified with a medical degree? Especially since consultant posts in any public hospital are highly sort after these days, I'd imagine there wouldn't be a shortage of OMS applying for a position. Especially with major public hospitals dealing with trauma/cancer etc.
I'm of course just talking about the "newer" single degree OS grads who aren't able to register as an OMS due to graduating post-2000

2. Without a medical degree, even though you can do technically do everything you've been trained in, won't you be denied access to the medicare benefits schedule (MBS) when treating patients due to not having a medical license in Australia? In private practice this would be an issue when you're not just using dental item numbers but charging for things like grafting/orthognathic surgery/orthodontic surgery etc. which would usually see a significant contribution of payment by the government through the MBS (not dental item numbers).
I'm having trouble seeing how an OMS who trained overseas and then came back to Australia and registered as an OS would be able to perform full scope OMFS procedures without being able to access the MBS. Of course all the regular oral surgery stuff we are usually billing through the ADA item numbers won't matter.
Am I wrong in assuming you can't access the MBS? (please excuse my ignorance if so)

Additionally, don't forget that it would be easier to complete your degrees in the country you wish to ultimately practice in. You asked about the 6 year American OMS + MD programs; but remember if you wanted to come back to Australia and register you also now have the hurdle of sitting the AMC (international medical graduate exam!) and then will probably have to redo your internship year to get medical registration.

Thanks for pointing this out, as I forgot that a medical degree overseas would require a re-accreditation for medical registration which would be a headache in itself.

Well, that is just the way it is in Australia. I also am an OMS in the states, but if I come to Australia will be registered as an OS there now. Its just politics, nothing more.

Congratulations on completing your training. I didn't realise the initial post was made over 3 years ago!
I've been reading into specialty training in the US and looking at how to go about it (as an option)
Did you complete the NBDE examinations and complete a DDS program to now work as a dentist/specialist in America?
Or are you currently working in a state where you can do specialist procedures only?
I'd like to hear more about your journey to working in America if you don't mind sharing. Happy to DM you for prviacy reasons if you wish
 

TKAO

oowah!
Valued Member
If possible, please reply here (not withstanding privacy concerns of course) as I think this is a fair bit of information that would useful to a lot of people looking into OMFS. It's not everyday that you get an OMS trained in the States logging onto an Australian undergraduate forum!
 

Smith88

Member
While you may be able to demonstrate competence in performing the procedures that you were trained in overseas wouldn't there be regulatory/red tape issues to get through to perform the same procedures here in Australia?

As long as you are credentialed by the hospital you wish to perform the procedures in and have indemnity cover for these procedures. There is no further red tape.

Would Australian public hospitals actually take on an OS without a medical degree over an OMS who is dual qualified with a medical degree? Especially since consultant posts in any public hospital are highly sort after these days, I'd imagine there wouldn't be a shortage of OMS applying for a position. Especially with major public hospitals dealing with trauma/cancer etc.

Any job that has multiple applicants means you will be competing against someone else. Even the dual qualified graduates compete against each other for jobs.

At the end of the day, if you are well trained for the job and are a person people like to work with (not someone with a chip on your shoulder who doesn’t play well with others) then I’m sure you will have just a good of a chance as anyone else.

Please note: You specifically mention public hospitals in this question. Don’t forget you don’t need to access MBS (Medicare) benefits to treat people in a public hospital as public health jobs in Australia are paid as a salary not fee for procedure (so being dual vs single qualified or OMS vs OS) makes absolutely no difference for the purpose of billing if you are talking about a job as a staff specialist in a public hospital.


Without a medical degree, even though you can do technically do everything you've been trained in, won't you be denied access to the medicare benefits schedule (MBS) when treating patients due to not having a medical license in Australia?

Again, as mentioned above; if you are referring to a staff specialist position in a public hospital (public health employee). This makes no difference as you aren’t personally “billing medicare” directly for the procedures you perform. The hospital does this and pays you a salary. How do you think interns other doctors working in public health jobs “bill MBS/medicare” when they don’t yet have full medical registration? (i.e. They don’t and it doesn’t matter in this scenario).


In private practice this would be an issue when you're not just using dental item numbers but charging for things like grafting/orthognathic surgery/orthodontic surgery etc. which would usually see a significant contribution of payment by the government through the MBS (not dental item numbers).

Ok, here is a “slight” difference (and I mean only slight).

First of all, lets be honest here. In “private practice” 80% of your work regardless if you are single or dual qualified is wisdom teeth and implants ( which are all ADA dental item codes). Medicare pays 0% NOTHING for any of this regardless of your qualifications.


Then you mentioned "orthognathic surgery" and “significant contribution of payment by the government through MBS”. :)

Do you know what is presently being charged by most OMS for a single jaw osteotomy or a bimax? In Australia I believe it is somewhere in the range of $5500 - $9000 per jaw (so 11k – 18k for a bimax).

Next: ...what do you feel is a “significant contribution” for example for orthognathic surgery?

Do you know what Medicare actually pays for this? No?, let me share this with you.

Direct from the current 2020 MBS cat 4 OMS schedule:

Item code: 52345
: single jaw osteotomy and fixation

Fee: $1,107.80 (Benefit: 75% = $830.85)

Item code: 52360 : Bimax (mandible and maxilla osteotomies) and fixation

Fee: $1,636.85 (Benefit: 75% 1,227.65)


This still leaves thousands for the patient to pay out of pocket even for the dual qualified OMS surgeons who have access to MBS!


Alternatively, you could use the ADA schedule of item codes for oral surgery.

Item: 365 Osteotomy – maxilla

Item: 366 Osteotomy – mandible

These items can be billed to PHI (private health insurance) for a rebate by either specialist (OS or OMS).

So, to answer your question. Yes, dual qualified OMS who have FRACDS (OMS) can access some money from MBS for these procedures for private practice patients. However, I don’t think I would consider what MBS pays a “significant contribution”.


Remember, (for orthognathic surgery) the patients who you perform this on who are private practice patients; These patients will usually have private health insurance and also will be paying an orthodontist 8k – 15k as well. So in the grand scheme of things an extra few hundred to 1 thousand dollars from Medicare is not going to make a huge hell of a difference.

Additionally, many of the patients who may be having orthognathic surgery and qualify for treatment in the public hospital can have their surgery for FREE! You as an oral surgeon if you have been credentialed to perform this procedure in a public hospital could offer this at no cost to the patient and you can be reimbursed for your time through an hourly salary just like any other staff specialist in the public hospital.

It doesn’t matter if you are dual qualified or single qualified. Most large “expanded scope” procedures (H/N, BiMax cases, cleft, reconstructive cases where a segment of the jaws has been removed previously for pathology etc) are completed in public hospitals where there is ICU access for patient safety and support.


... something to consider.


Congratulations on completing your training. I didn't realise the initial post was made over 3 years ago!

I've been reading into specialty training in the US and looking at how to go about it (as an option)
Did you complete the NBDE examinations and complete a DDS program to now work as a dentist/specialist in America?
Or are you currently working in a state where you can do specialist procedures only?

Thanks. I am now working as a contractor for a corporate at the moment and paying off some debt. Interested in returning to Australia to settle at some point in the next few years.

Yes, I did have to complete the NBDE to get into a US program. If you were interested in applying to Canadian OMS programs you would need to sit the Canadian board exams.

Unsure what is require for Singapore or other countries. Might be best to email them and ask.

I did not have to complete a US DDS degree. I completed dentistry in Australia, then NBDE and got an acceptance to a US OMS 4 year residency program. In the States dental licences are still state based (not national like in Australia). My state dental board granted me a license as a specialist OMS after I completed my US accredited OMS training program. In the States you don’t have to have both a general dental license and specialist license simultaneously like you now have to do in Australia with AHPRA.
 
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At the end of the day, if you are well trained for the job and are a person people like to work with (not someone with a chip on your shoulder who doesn’t play well with others) then I’m sure you will have just a good of a chance as anyone else.

Fair point. I live in one of the smaller states where Oral Surgeons are pretty much non existent compared to the OMFS guys in town. Every dentist in town pretty much concludes that oral surgery / orthognathic surgery etc. goes to the OMFS guys due to our local training. There are only OMFS working in public hospitals and teaching at the dental schools. OS basically doesn't exist.
So I guess I may just be naive to how it actually works in Sydney and Melbourne where there are much larger numbers of both OMFS and OS and both operate in public hospitals, both get referrals from private dentists, and both work in the dental schools.

One OS who worked and taught at one of the dental schools and major teaching hospital many years ago basically got run out by the OMFS club and politics...

So while it may be the norm in Melbourne and Sydney that OS and OMFS are equals, I can't help but think that some unwritten political bs plays a role as well when applying for jobs in public and then getting referrals in private etc.

So, to answer your question. Yes, dual qualified OMS who have FRACDS (OMS) can access some money from MBS for these procedures for private practice patients. However, I don’t think I would consider what MBS pays a “significant contribution”.

My bad, point taken 😛
Another perhaps silly question though. I thought that if you're going into hospital for treatment, the surgeon needs to perform one of the treatments listed in the MBS in order for PHI to actually pay for the hospital cost? Isn't this why patients seeing "cosmetic doctors" or plastic surgeons etc. dont' get hospital coverage when they get cosmetic procedures done in hospital? Even though plastic surgeons are credentialled with the hospital they operate out of. Eg. cosmetic rhinoplasty vs rhinoplasty for airway treatment. One would have a hospital fee thats completely uncovered and one would allow PHI to cover the hospital fee
If OS can't access the MBS, doesn't this mean their patients dont get hospital coverage? which would be a lot more than just a thousand dollars.
Again, I could be completely wrong.
 
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Smith88

Member
Fair point. I live in one of the smaller states where Oral Surgeons are pretty much non existent compared to the OMFS guys in town. Every dentist in town pretty much concludes that oral surgery / orthognathic surgery etc. goes to the OMFS guys due to our local training. There are only OMFS working in public hospitals and teaching at the dental schools. OS basically doesn't exist.
So I guess I may just be naive to how it actually works in Sydney and Melbourne where there are much larger numbers of both OMFS and OS and both operate in public hospitals, both get referrals from private dentists, and both work in the dental schools.

Hopefully in future there will be more oral surgeons like me working in Australia to change this perception. And I'm sure that there will be in a few years now that there are new OS programs available in Australia and New Zealand; and that there is a better understanding about overseas OMS training options, and the overseas trained specialist recognition pathways.

The one OS who worked and taught at the dental school and major teaching hospital many years ago basically got run out by the OMFS club and politics...

Unfortunately this is a common story. ... remember what I said about people with chips on their shoulders. 😏


basically it seems like OMFS double dip into MBS + ADA dental codes to get patients a greater rebate.
I don't think that is allowed. No different than you charging medicare for a kids filling and also billing their parent's health fund for the same thing. If you're concerned you can always contact the patient's health fund or the Health ombudsman to clarify.
 

Smith88

Member
Another perhaps silly question though. I thought that if you're going into hospital for treatment, the surgeon needs to perform one of the treatments listed in the MBS in order for PHI to actually pay for the hospital cost? Isn't this why patients seeing "cosmetic doctors" or plastic surgeons etc. dont' get hospital coverage when they get cosmetic procedures done in hospital? Even though plastic surgeons are credentialled with the hospital they operate out of. Eg. cosmetic rhinoplasty vs rhinoplasty for airway treatment. One would have a hospital fee thats completely uncovered and one would allow PHI to cover the hospital fee
If OS can't access the MBS, doesn't this mean their patients dont get hospital coverage? which would be a lot more than just a thousand dollars.
Again, I could be completely wrong.

As far as I'm aware this is not an issue for oral surgery:

What do you think Paediatric dentists and Special Needs Dentists do in this situation?
They require GA for their patients too all the time. In private practice they are also just using ADA item codes. When they work in a public hospital again just like OS or OMS (or any medical specialist) they are getting a salary per hour as a staff specialist (so again, no issue with MBS numbers).
 
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Hopefully in future there will be more oral surgeons like me working in Australia to change this perception. And I'm sure that there will be in a few years now that there are new OS programs available in Australia and New Zealand; and that there is a better understanding about overseas OMS training options, and the overseas trained specialist recognition pathways.

Mate I had no idea about any of the overseas options or recognition until I found this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one too, who's benefitted from your generosity.
When you come back to Australia I hope you land a gig you've been hoping for!
 

Smith88

Member
If anyone is interested in the OMS program in Singapore there is a zoom info session coming up (25 September 2020 from 6pm to 7.30pm).
View attachment 3943

NUS 3 year MDS (OMS) training program now accepting applications, closing in November!

If I didn't head to the states for OMS I would have also considered this program. Full scope OMS training (just a little less exposure to trauma because there is simply less of it in Singapore), the program would of course allow OMS specialty registration in Singapore, Malaysia, etc (and probably OS registration in Australia provided you already have an Australian dental license : just need to apply to the Dental Board for recognition of your overseas specialty training). Once registered as a specialist OS in Australia/NZ, get indemnity insurance, and get credentialed at your public/private hospital of choice you can practice whatever scope you are trained in.

 

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Gogi

Member
For example

1. Would Australian public hospitals actually take on an OS without a medical degree over an OMS who is dual qualified with a medical degree? Especially since consultant posts in any public hospital are highly sort after these days, I'd imagine there wouldn't be a shortage of OMS applying for a position. Especially with major public hospitals dealing with trauma/cancer etc.
I'm of course just talking about the "newer" single degree OS grads who aren't able to register as an OMS due to graduating post-2000

2. Without a medical degree, even though you can do technically do everything you've been trained in, won't you be denied access to the medicare benefits schedule (MBS) when treating patients due to not having a medical license in Australia? In private practice this would be an issue when you're not just using dental item numbers but charging for things like grafting/orthognathic surgery/orthodontic surgery etc. which would usually see a significant contribution of payment by the government through the MBS (not dental item numbers).
I'm having trouble seeing how an OMS who trained overseas and then came back to Australia and registered as an OS would be able to perform full scope OMFS procedures without being able to access the MBS. Of course all the regular oral surgery stuff we are usually billing through the ADA item numbers won't matter.
Am I wrong in assuming you can't access the MBS? (please excuse my ignorance if so)

I just wanted to add my 2c here as a budding OMS in the near future.

The OMFS career pathway is getting more competitive and popular nowadays, in both the dental and medical field.
If you look at all the recent job postings of OMFS consultant/VMO jobs they all require both medical and dental registrations with AHPRA - regardless of whether you have been credentialed and trained overseas as an OMS.

And as for the medicare issues, it can create a lot of headaches for the hospital & private clinics as you won't have access to medicare if you don't have a medical degree. Unfortunately it does have affect the $$$ fair bit to the patient, not just hundreds but thousands of dollars.
For example - treatment under GA - "if you have appropriate Hospital cover, your fund will also pay benefits towards the costs of the anaesthetist. Generally you will receive 75% of the Medicare Schedule Fee from Medicare and the remaining 25% will be paid by your health fund."

I have colleagues who are OMFS trainees and also know a few consultants who describe the job market as not-so-good..
 

Smith88

Member
I just wanted to add my 2c here as a budding OMS in the near future.

The OMFS career pathway is getting more competitive and popular nowadays, in both the dental and medical field.
If you look at all the recent job postings of OMFS consultant/VMO jobs they all require both medical and dental registrations with AHPRA - regardless of whether you have been credentialed and trained overseas as an OMS.

I agree with you! Its all competitive. In the States where I trained and currently work, the med degree is optional for OMS. It has been published here that the OMS programs that don't include a med degree (single degree) have a higher number applicants to positions available than the dual degree programs (making the single degree path technically more competitive). But I'm sure both options in Australia would also be very competitive as well.

In Australia and NZ there are jobs (in the public system) for both OS and OMS as these are seperate specialties (technically) in Australia. The jobs listed for OMS will of course advertise for OMS requirements (Dual degrees / FRACDS (OMS) and OS will require their own list of requirements. As an aside in Australia/NZ there are lots of different people with a wide variety of training backgrounds in both categories of registration. There are older single degree OMS and newer dual degree OMS. In terms of OS in Australia/NZ, some are newer single degree OS (DClinDent), some are overseas trained OMS who are registered as OS, and there are even a few dual degree OS around the place as well. (its a big mix of different people). Ideally this should be viewed as a strength and not a weakness or a problem. These are colleagues with different strengths who should be respectful of each other and be able to work together for the benefit of the patients. I have a real problem with the disrespect, egos, and unethical behaviour some of these people (supposed professionals) exhibit towards each other (in Australia it seems to be the worst I've ever seen). The RACDS OMS program is a great program! No question. However, it is the longer training option (and many trainees in that program have reported that they often feel more lost and have less certainty about their future particularly investing in a second degree without the security of having an actual training position yet or any support for that matter from RACDS in the early stages), and if there isn't your dream job waiting for you when you finish and life is harder than you thought it was going to be after; then sometimes that leads to resentment and bad behaviour as people feel jaded (not always, but it can affect some).

And as for the medicare issues, it can create a lot of headaches for the hospital & private clinics as you won't have access to medicare if you don't have a medical degree. Unfortunately it does have affect the $$$ fair bit to the patient, not just hundreds but thousands of dollars.
For example - treatment under GA - "if you have appropriate Hospital cover, your fund will also pay benefits towards the costs of the anaesthetist. Generally you will receive 75% of the Medicare Schedule Fee from Medicare and the remaining 25% will be paid by your health fund."

I guess it really depends on what procedures you are referring to exactly.. Again, in terms of most private practice work (wisdom teeth/implants) where no medicare cover exists it makes absolutely no difference as private health funds make no distinction between OMS or OS when it comes to rebating these procedures in private.

If GA access for patients in private and public for oral surgery was really an issue.. then it would be no different for paediatric dentists or special needs dentists. All 3 specialties in Australia and NZ have no issues with GA access for their patients in both private and public practice. All 3 use ADA item codes and none have access to Medicare for procedures.

I have colleagues who are OMFS trainees and also know a few consultants who describe the job market as not-so-good..

Maybe in the cities. Sure. Most big cities (even in the States) are saturated with competition. But then again... everything is competitive. General dentistry is competitive too.

However, if you have a passion for the work and want to do it.. it should't stop you (that goes for single or dual degree training)!

Good luck with your training by the way. Its a hard slog and I hope you enjoy it!
 
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I just wanted to add my 2c here as a budding OMS in the near future.

The OMFS career pathway is getting more competitive and popular nowadays, in both the dental and medical field.
If you look at all the recent job postings of OMFS consultant/VMO jobs they all require both medical and dental registrations with AHPRA - regardless of whether you have been credentialed and trained overseas as an OMS.

Hi Gogi, do you happen to know the rough numbers for applicants to the RACDS(OMS) program and how many they take each year?
I am still waiting to see where I up next year as I have applied to medicine already. Going down the med pathway, I really only have my eyes set on OMS... but I'm sure other dual qualified grads all say the same thing.
Just wanted to know roughly what my odds of actually succeeding would be.
 

Smith88

Member
Hi Gogi, do you happen to know the rough numbers for applicants to the RACDS(OMS) program and how many they take each year?
I am still waiting to see where I up next year as I have applied to medicine already. Going down the med pathway, I really only have my eyes set on OMS... but I'm sure other dual qualified grads all say the same thing.
Just wanted to know roughly what my odds of actually succeeding would be.
Good question. How many first year OMS training positions are their in Australia (and New Zealand)?

Here is the RACDS OMS handbook : https://racds.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/OMSHandbook.pdf
I can't find where it specifically mentions the number of first year spots that are available each year.

Anyone know this?

My guess: NSW: 2, Vic: 2, QLD: 2, WA: 1, Tas: 1 = Australia total 7 per year?

I do know there are a large number of people who have invested (in vain) in completing both degrees, a medical internship year, and then a general surgery year and still don't get accepted to the OMS program every year and end up either doing another specialty altogether, or doing OMS overseas or probably applying to the DClinDent programs in Au/NZ. (exact figures of these applicants to spots ratio is probably not tracked nor published anywhere probably for good reason).

Again, this is the main gripe myself and most others have with the structure of the current RACDS OMS program is that its a big gamble to do all of that (med school, internship, and SIG year) for a high chance of not getting in. In the states the OMS programs that do offer a med degree do so only after you are accepted into the OMS program AND they make the entire OMS and Med degree time frame to completion no longer than 6 years (instead of the RACDS structure which takes 11-12 years (twice as long!) for the exact same outcome!

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency Training Program | University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC) College of Dentistry (Chicago OMS program is a 6-year program that "includes a Medical degree (M.D.) and a Certificate for a one-year Internship in General Surgery" and medical license registration (what an internship gives you in Australia). This should not take twice as long in Australia! ... and they make you navigate getting a med degree, internship, and obtaining a general surgery year of training all without their guidance or acceptance into the actual training program. ridiculous.
 
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TKAO

oowah!
Valued Member
My guess: NSW: 2, Vic: 2, QLD: 2, WA: 1, Tas: 1 = Australia total 7 per year?

I do know there are a large number of people who have invested (in vain) in completing both degrees, a medical internship year, and then a general surgery year and still don't get accepted to the OMS program every year and end up either doing another specialty altogether, or doing OMS overseas or probably applying to the DClinDent programs in Au/NZ. (exact figures of these applicants to spots ratio is probably not tracked nor published anywhere probably for good reason).
I can confirm for QLD it is indeed 2. Not sure about the rest. Check medinav QLD health in google and find it for more information.

On another note, surely there can't be that many people out there that want to do both a medical and dental degree? I can't imagine more than like 10 people wanting to do that per year but I'd love to know the thought process behind why so many people would do that.
 

Smith88

Member
I don't have more recent data, this table shows 6 each in 2014 & 2015

View attachment 4038

Good find! Thanks for that. (I was pretty close). It has probably not changed (if so not much) since then. So that means there are 6-7 spots only nationwide. I don't think anyone knows how many people who are dual qualified in the mix out there applying for these spots, but I imagine it is at least 20-30 each year nationwide (or likely more). I wonder how many would try again from the previous year's batch of applicants? How many years would you try before you gave up or took an alternative route?

The United States has about 100 OMS programs with each program having between 1 to 3 spots each per year. This means in the US there are roughly 200-350 first year spots in the country each year. Roughly half of them are 4 year OMS programs that don't require a medical degree and the other half are 6 year programs that provide a medical degree within the 6 years for those accepted.

I have no issue with a program being competitive (its good if the OMS program is competitive!). In the States some programs have 60 to 100 applicants for 2-spots!

However, what I do take issue with is when the supervising body (RACDS) suggests a bunch of people waste tax payers $ (HECS) to support a med degree and then also internship (effectively also taking a training spot from someone else who may otherwise end up providing a needed medical service in another capacity to an area of need) for a dentist who as aspirations of doing OMS without actually first supporting that person by accepting them on to the program; and so that person has no way of knowing if after doing all of that that they will get onto the program if it was all a waste of time and $.

Again, the OMS programs in the States and Canada are half as long and are better structured so as to provide more concise training and security for those accepted onto the program; and don't waste people's time in med school without an actual training program acceptance.

I've never heard anyone suggest that a dual qualified OMS trained in a US program is less of a surgeon than a dual qualified OMS trained in Australia. If the same training can be done in half the time in the USA.... then that begs the question : Why can't things be better organised in Australia to provide a more concise well organised program? Again, no one doubting the RACDS is not a good program (just that it could be better organised).
 
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Smith88

Member
surely there can't be that many people out there that want to do both a medical and dental degree? I can't imagine more than like 10 people wanting to do that per year

If that were true. ...Only 10 dual qualified applicants per year ; and there are say 7 first year spots), then that means there would be a 70% chance you would get on to the program the first time you applied. That means its not very competitive.
 

Gogi

Member
Hi Gogi, do you happen to know the rough numbers for applicants to the RACDS(OMS) program and how many they take each year?
I am still waiting to see where I up next year as I have applied to medicine already. Going down the med pathway, I really only have my eyes set on OMS... but I'm sure other dual qualified grads all say the same thing.
Just wanted to know roughly what my odds of actually succeeding would be.

Hey SquirtleSquad,

It actually differs every year depending on the number of applicants who managed to pass the FRACDS(OMS) etc, but on average it is about 7-9 every year. Smith88, pretty good guess!
This year however due to COVID19, they only accepted 5 applicants, which means its only going to get harder from next year.

On another note, surely there can't be that many people out there that want to do both a medical and dental degree? I can't imagine more than like 10 people wanting to do that per year but I'd love to know the thought process behind why so many people would do that.

You'd be surprised how many people do them.
In 2018, I think it was roughly 35-40 eligible applicants who applied for the OMS program - these are applicants who have done both medicine, dentistry, general surgical experience as a medical doctor etc.
People do them mostly do pursue OMFS, i have seen the odd one who does it purely to change their careers entirely.

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency Training Program | University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC) College of Dentistry (Chicago OMS program is a 6-year program that "includes a Medical degree (M.D.) and a Certificate for a one-year Internship in General Surgery" and medical license registration (what an internship gives you in Australia). This should not take twice as long in Australia! ... and they make you navigate getting a med degree, internship, and obtaining a general surgery year of training all without their guidance or acceptance into the actual training program. ridiculous.

You are absolutely right, if only that sort of pathway existed in Australia/NZ... The uncertainty does occasionally creep in :/
 

Smith88

Member
In 2018, I think it was roughly 35-40 eligible applicants who applied for the OMS program - these are applicants who have done both medicine, dentistry, general surgical experience as a medical doctor etc.
People do them mostly do pursue OMFS, i have seen the odd one who does it purely to change their careers entirely.

I think in those cases its fine. There is of course always someone who wishes they had done medicine or another career other than dentistry or a dental specialty.

However, in most cases the only people who would ever consider doing both dental and medical degrees would be only for OMS. In my opinion the older OMS program in Australia (and by older I mean only 7-8 years ago) used to be a better structure for the applicants than it is even now.

Now: RACDS provides NO support for anyone. Just says "go get both degrees, internship, and general surgery year all on your own and come back to us and apply for our 4 year program when you've ticked all the boxes" (which is really unreasonable to ask this of people when you know there is going to be a bunch of people wasting their time doing it all). (Plus total training time "if" you get onto the program ends up being about 11-12 years! ... and that's before you even get to the subspecialty clinical fellowship level which US/Canadian grads can start after year 4 or 6).

Only 7-8 years ago: the RACDS would accept you onto the OMS program after 2 years of general dental working experience and RACDS Primary exam pass (same as all other dental specialties), then you would do 2 years of BST (basic surgical training), then you would do medical school and internship, and then return to complete a further 2-3 years afterwards (for a total of 8-9 years); which yes, is still longer than the USA or Canada (but at least you had the security of knowing doing medical school was not a complete waste of your time as you were already accepted onto the training program.


If I was in charge of the RACDS training program... 🤔
Requirements to getting on the program would be: 2 years general experience (including some experience in OMS as an assistant/observing/etc for at least a 2-3 weeks intensive (externship) at min so people know what they are getting into), Pass in Primary exam, and an interview (Panel: OMS, dental academic, community member, and a psychologist) :)

Then the structure would be as follows:
1. DClinDent (OMS) 4 year program followed by eligibility for specialist registration.
2. Optional advance standing into medical school for those interested (2-3 years) (during this time the now OMS specialist/med student would also have a part-time OMS senior registrar position so they don't loose their hand skills/clinical skills)
3. Internship (1-year)
4. Optional Clinical Fellowship in: H/N, Cleft/Craniofacial, Cosmetic (1-2 years)

This allows those who wish to practice your average OMS scope to complete a standard dental specialty training program and be done with it (like the USA, Canada, and everywhere else). ... and for those who wish to practice a subspecialty area and want to complete both degrees to be able to have a streamline process after general specialty training so they don't waste their time and money for nothing. (Doesn't this make a lot more sense?).
 
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