Curtin Curtin Medicine: General Questions and Discussion

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
I sent an appeal yesterday and am currently waiting for a reply. I think the greater the number of people who question it, the greater likelihood we'll find out what's happened
Let me add a little more analysis to help in case the issue drags on.

Curtin would be extremely naive to again use the formula 60%(ATAR rank) + 40%(UMAT/UCAT score). I think they must have learned from their last time's error.

It's possible this year they could be using 60%(ATAR rank/99.95) + 40%(UCAT score/3600).
If so then 99.3+3250 (=0.9572) is indeed higher than 99.75+3220 (=0.9566).

However this formula is still far from being a valid method. Reason: a UCAT question is on average worth 15 UCAT marks. Plug 15 into this 60/40 formula it equates to 0.27 ATAR. Which means a 99.70 with one single UCAT question higher would be better than a 99.95.

Still not a valid method isn't it?
 

ucatnoob

Body-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody
Yes, I understand your original viewpoint and agree that more info is needed to reach a conclusion - which is why I also mentioned that round was across several categories. Curtin’s founding principles may also see them naturally lean towards WA and rural/equity students. Anyway, I hope you get the invite/offer you want. Good luck.
Oh no I'm a WA applicant and I already had my interview w/ the first round invites. Good luck on your invites/offers mate!

also didnt get interview invitaion with 99.95 ATAR and 3030 UCAT (95%). I called the lady and was told this score is not enough , very weird.
Wow, now this is looking really bad. Could you tell us if you're interstate or a WA applicant?
 

ucatnoob

Body-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody
The instate invites that have been posted on the forum for the 2021 rounds have had very high combos: 5.92/98%, 99.3/99%, 99.9/99% and 99.95/99%. But these combos also have very high ucat scores. So, as A1 suggests, it might be the method which Curtin uses (favouring those with high ucat scores and relatively high atars than those with high atars but also in the mid 90s ucat wise). sohnaeo
 
hey guys, 2nd yr here!
from my experience / what I know, there has always been preferential selection towards WA students - it's even common knowledge within the med school - i.e. that any of the interstate kids would have gotten high 99 ATARs and lower UCAT, the reason why a lot of interstate kids end up at curtin is bc they didn't score high enough in the UCAT to attend med schools in their own states

now this is just what I understand to be true from conversation, not backed up by anything formal

also it seems as tho there was some confusion over how many spaces are available
there's currently 87 students in 2nd yr, we started off with ~95 but many deferred bc of COVID so bc of that the 2021 cohort is going to be bigger, I believe we were told "just over 100 places"

feel free 2 ask any other q ab the actual course itself, look forward 2 meeting some of u if u r at curtin this yr!
 
D

Deleted member 35034

Guest
hey guys, 2nd yr here!
from my experience / what I know, there has always been preferential selection towards WA students - it's even common knowledge within the med school - i.e. that any of the interstate kids would have gotten high 99 ATARs and lower UCAT, the reason why a lot of interstate kids end up at curtin is bc they didn't score high enough in the UCAT to attend med schools in their own states

now this is just what I understand to be true from conversation, not backed up by anything formal

also it seems as tho there was some confusion over how many spaces are available
there's currently 87 students in 2nd yr, we started off with ~95 but many deferred bc of COVID so bc of that the 2021 cohort is going to be bigger, I believe we were told "just over 100 places"

feel free 2 ask any other q ab the actual course itself, look forward 2 meeting some of u if u r at curtin this yr!
In support of your conversations/understanding - the Curtin Admissions Guide actually refers to WA school leavers as the target applicants:

TARGET APPLICANTS
The degree is primarily for Western Australian school leavers who have completed year 12 or equivalent and do not have a higher degree record.
 
While the target applicants are WA school-leavers (which makes sense, as it's an undergrad based in a WA university with hopes its graduates stay within WA), the only formal evidence of WA preferencing exists in the rural and equity entry pathways. I'm not sure if this has remained true for 2021 entry.
As far as interstate students in the Class of 2024 goes, we have around 20~ and the ones I've spoken to achieved more than competitive UCAT scores for entry in their home states. Based on my conversations, many factors contributed to them ending up at Curtin - poor interview performance in higher preferences, desire to reside in Perth vs. other offers' options, offer types (CSP at Curtin vs. BMP/provisional elsewhere) etc. To be honest, I personally haven't caught wind of the notion that CMS preferences WA applicants in my discussions.
 
D

Deleted member 35034

Guest
While the target applicants are WA school-leavers (which makes sense, as it's an undergrad based in a WA university with hopes its graduates stay within WA), the only formal evidence of WA preferencing exists in the rural and equity entry pathways. I'm not sure if this has remained true for 2021 entry.
As far as interstate students in the Class of 2024 goes, we have around 20~ and the ones I've spoken to achieved more than competitive UCAT scores for entry in their home states. Based on my conversations, many factors contributed to them ending up at Curtin - poor interview performance in higher preferences, desire to reside in Perth vs. other offers' options, offer types (CSP at Curtin vs. BMP/provisional elsewhere) etc. To be honest, I personally haven't caught wind of the notion that CMS preferences WA applicants in my discussions.
The balance of numbers (from the various pools, rural/equity/course switchers etc) tends to weigh overall cohort percentage towards WA. I have no idea with the remaining competitive academic pool, seems mixed. Aren't you and Angelica in the same cohort then (2024)?
 
The balance of numbers (from the various pools, rural/equity/course switchers etc) tends to weigh overall cohort percentage towards WA. I have no idea with the remaining competitive academic pool, seems mixed. Aren't you and Angelica in the same cohort then (2024)?
I’d assume so, since the class of 2024 is the only cohort who has sat the UCAT at Curtin so far.
In any case, a higher percentage of WA students doesn't necessarily equal hard preferencing. Wouldn't any University have a higher percentage of in-state students due to likelihood of accepting an offer closer to home/support/convenience? IIRC, one person did just that and left at the beginning of second week for a home state offer. They were soon replaced by an interstate non-standard.
 
D

Deleted member 35034

Guest
I’d assume so, since the class of 2024 is the only cohort who has sat the UCAT at Curtin so far.
In any case, a higher percentage of WA students doesn't necessarily equal hard preferencing. Wouldn't any University have a higher percentage of in-state students due to likelihood of accepting an offer closer to home/support/convenience? IIRC, one person did just that and left at the beginning of second week for a home state offer. They were soon replaced by an interstate non-standard.
Yes, of course…I was just trying to understand the difference in feedback/viewpoint. In relation to “Wouldn’t any University have a higher percentage of in-state students…”, in most cases they do. However, Curtin would be one of the few to restrict all EAS, rurality, and course switching pools to local students only. This is a sizeable portion of the cohort and structured to meet the Target Applicant goal.

Beyond that, for the academic/general pool, I have no reason to believe there is a preference either way. I’ve only mentioned target applicants’ numbers in reference to the final general pool being much smaller than the overall cohort intake (after you take out the locally preferenced quotas).

I initially raised this in relation to people criticising the small numbers or interstaters being offered interviews; to highlight it is a relatively small pool to begin with as there are several categories and separate offer rounds.

Overall, I think the academic/general pool is fairly competitive; and anyone who gains a place (in any category) has done well and deserves to be there.

Unfortunately, I feel the whole conversation lost its way a bit, so I won’t comment any further.
 
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While the target applicants are WA school-leavers (which makes sense, as it's an undergrad based in a WA university with hopes its graduates stay within WA), the only formal evidence of WA preferencing exists in the rural and equity entry pathways. I'm not sure if this has remained true for 2021 entry.
As far as interstate students in the Class of 2024 goes, we have around 20~ and the ones I've spoken to achieved more than competitive UCAT scores for entry in their home states. Based on my conversations, many factors contributed to them ending up at Curtin - poor interview performance in higher preferences, desire to reside in Perth vs. other offers' options, offer types (CSP at Curtin vs. BMP/provisional elsewhere) etc. To be honest, I personally haven't caught wind of the notion that CMS preferences WA applicants in my discussions.
Oh woah that's really interesting! Yeah you seem to have a much larger pool of people you've spoken to so I'd definitely take your word over mine.
 

TKAO

oowah!
Valued Member
Oh woah that's really interesting! Yeah you seem to have a much larger pool of people you've spoken to so I'd definitely take your word over mine.
You can also see this with the TISC offer statistics for curtin med from 2019. They had significantly more people interstate than UWA persay. Out of the 91 offers they sent out last year, 50 were WACE students from that year, with the rest (at most ~8 being from tertiary/curtin courseswitcher) and interstaters. Unfortunately this data only gets released in late march of this year so you'll have to wait for the final statistics regarding whether they have indeed changed the way they operate.
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
It's possible this year they could be using 60%(ATAR rank/99.95) + 40%(UCAT score/3600).

I have seen correspondence from Curtin confirming the formula used for interview selection is
60%(ATAR/100) + 40%(UCAT/3600)

The mathematical problem with this formula is ATAR is a rank (which means the face number has been highly compressed) whereas UCAT is a score. This leads to
99.95 + 2940 = 0.9264 being worse than 99.80 + 2950 = 0.9266

Within the same 90%ile but 10 UCAT marks lower makes 99.95 worse than 99.80, only Curtin can see it that way.

(Another way to demonstrate this formula is unfit is - Applicants' ATARs typically vary between 98 & 99.95 i.e 2percent of the 100 range, whereas UCATs vary between 2900 & 3400 = 14percent of the 3600 range. Even with the 60/40 weightings a 3percent differential in UCAT can balance out the full 2percent of the ATAR differential range. It's simply not a valid method).
 

ucatboy

MD II
Valued Member
I have seen correspondence from Curtin confirming the formula used for interview selection is
60%(ATAR/100) + 40%(UCAT/3600)

The mathematical problem with this is ATAR is a rank (which means the face number has been highly compressed) whereas UCAT is a score. This leads to
99.95 + 2940 = 0.9264 being worse than 99.80 + 2950 = 0.9266

Within the same 90%ile but 10 UCAT marks lower makes 99.95 worse than 99.80, only Curtin can see it that way.

(Another way to demonstrate this formula is unfit is - Applicants' ATARs typically vary between 98 & 99.95 i.e 2percent of the 100 range, whereas UCATs vary between 2900 & 3400 = 14percent of the 3600 range. Even with the 60/40 weightings a 3percent differential in UCAT can balance out the full 2percent of the ATAR differential range. It's simply not a valid method).
Holy f*** how did Curtin mess up this bad again...

Using your benchmark of 0.9266, it means that once someone gets an exception UCAT score (e.g. 3300), they're basically set and can have several full ATAR ranks lower.
 
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saba5678

Member
If anyone is interested in seeing their direct correspondence after I asked

1. Whether WA is preferenced over non-WA students
2. Regarding the ATAR+UCAT inconsistencies we've observed on MSO

This was their response:
1610534544593.png

I have now sent an email essentially explaining A1's reasoning (thanks a lot dude!) and am awaiting their reply
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
This was their response:

You can file a lawsuit based off this Curtin's response.

Curtin says "Ranking has been correctly completed in accordance with the published methodology ... as stated in the 2021 Admissions Guide"

The Guide says "Applicants are ranked and selected for interview based on the weighted sum of their academic merit score (ATAR or equivalent) and their UCAT ANZ score (out of 3600) in the ratio of 60:40"

This means it must be 60%(ATAR) + 40%(UCAT Score/3600) -
NOT 60%(ATAR/100) + 40%(UCAT Score/3600) as Curtin has done. They have not done it correctly in accordance with the Guide.

EtA: Btw both formulas are invalid methods for combining different scores, but this is an easier way to show Curtin has not done it correctly.
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
This post is for someone at Curtin Medicine and Admissions to please read.

Please see this webpage (by a University College) > An explanation of z-scores (standardized values)

its title is : Z-Scores: A note done for Admissions board
its point is : Z-scores are a useful way to combine scores from data that has different means and ranges. The past two years z-scores have been used to help rank order the entrance test results.

If Curtin Admissions doesn't understand z-scores, instead you sum a rank (ATAR) with a score (UCAT) to rank applicants, I suggest you need to seek professional help.
 
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