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[Discussion] Validity of Current Selection Criteria

pi

Junior doctor
Emeritus Staff
Like GWS the whole of Victoria is low-SES so Monash uses lower cutoffs for Vic students :p

We're a humble bunch in Vic, we take pleasure in the simple life <3
 

A1

Rookie Doc
Moderator
'Increased diversity and opportunity' ... he he he really?
'its not just the people who get 95th%ile+ or 99.00+ that make excellent doctors".. we know, we know... the general population know this too.
But at end of days, they still only interview from within high achiever/top IB/top ATAR/ best tutored/ group!
Is there really that much demographic diversity there... he he he he
Random Bingo Machine has big thumbs up from me.

Random Bingo would give you 1% chance (~1500 places for school leavers against ~150,000 with an ATAR). As it is once you are eligible to apply you have roughly 1 in 15 chance = 6%.

If schools select on ATAR as suggested you would need 99.50+ to get a place, would you like that? The current methods allow many sub-99.50s, some sub-98s, some even lower but are given EAS points etc, to get in. The schools try to make the cohorts more diversified but there isn't a way to make everyone happy.
 

Lili

Member
Random Bingo would give you 1% chance (~1500 places for school leavers against ~150,000 with an ATAR). As it is once you are eligible to apply you have roughly 1 in 15 chance = 6%.

If schools select on ATAR as suggested you would need 99.50+ to get a place, would you like that? The current methods allow many sub-99.50s, some sub-98s, some even lower but are given EAS points etc, to get in. The schools try to make the cohorts more diversified but there isn't a way to make everyone happy.
Everyone can enter the lottery. Not everyone can get super high ATAR but does not mean they cannot be doctor.
Think of the supermarket.
Right now, is like the Unis shopping in the Asian and Indian food iyel. But there is some good tucker over there in fruit/ vegie and in meats iyel. I like pasta and would prefer some pasta tonight for dinner or for hospital food. If we keep eating just Asian and Indian food, we cant satisfy out taste bud. All food is good. We should not throw out good food.
Confucius say 'By nature, men are nearly alike; it is by custom and habit that they are set apart.'
 

Crow

Staff | Junior Doctor
Moderator
Everyone can enter the lottery. Not everyone can get super high ATAR but does not mean they cannot be doctor.
Think of the supermarket.
Right now, is like the Unis shopping in the Asian and Indian food iyel. But there is some good tucker over there in fruit/ vegie and in meats iyel. I like pasta and would prefer some pasta tonight for dinner or for hospital food. If we keep eating just Asian and Indian food, we cant satisfy out taste bud. All food is good. We should not throw out good food.
Confucius say 'By nature, men are nearly alike; it is by custom and habit that they are set apart.'
I actually can’t comprehend the point you are making here... could you clarify please?
 

A1

Rookie Doc
Moderator
Everyone can enter the lottery. Not everyone can get super high ATAR but does not mean they cannot be doctor.

Would anyone propose to open up *all* university places to a lottery system?

If not then why only for medicine, is it because you want to do medicine so you like a way more suitable for you and you don't care about the rest?
 

Cal

vibe
Moderator
Would anyone propose to open up *all* university places to a lottery system?

If not then why only for medicine, is it because you want to do medicine so you like a way more suitable for you and you don't care about the rest?
yeah infact a lottery system will get wayy more non suitable applicants into interviews, because at least a high atar/ucat a holistic dedication to the field rather than a oh shit ima enter into this lottery and see if I can get an interview ya feel me?
 

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A1

Rookie Doc
Moderator
yeah infact a lottery system will get wayy more non suitable applicants into interviews

Indeed one or two European countries did have a lottery system for their Med schools. Despite being weighted to give higher chances to higher academic students they abandoned it due to too many failing half way.
 

chinaski

Regular Member
I have a feeling this is troll lol. Perhaps, best not to engage in the fruitless discussion?

I don't think any reasonable person would propose a "lottery system" as a genuine means of selection into a career as demanding and important as medicine lol.

I am a doctor. Hypothetically speaking, incorporating a lottery system into selection for school leavers has some credible points. Don't get too swept up in the perceived "importance" of medicine.
 
I am a doctor. Hypothetically speaking, incorporating a lottery system into selection for school leavers has some credible points. Don't get too swept up in the perceived "importance" of medicine.

How so exactly? And when you say incorporatinig a lottery system, has some credible points - are you implying that there is merit to the random selection of applicants, and then banking on med school/ internship/residency to train the applicants over pre-selecting students according to the current system of UCAT/ATAR/Interview?
 
I am completely new to this forum and while reading the threads I was just wondering about the chances of getting into monash uni as a school leaver. It would be a great help if any of you could suggest me my chances for getting into monash med with a 90% UCAT and 98ish ATAR....

Thanks!
Have a look at past interview offers (there is a collated thread which can be accessed by a google search) although these may differ for UCAT vs UMAT
Also depends on whether you are vic, interstate, rural etc
 
D

Deleted member 37402

Guest
I am a doctor. Hypothetically speaking, incorporating a lottery system into selection for school leavers has some credible points. Don't get too swept up in the perceived "importance" of medicine.
Although what you have written is refreshing and has a lot of truth in it, I think that this forum is for the staunch believers of “we don’t perceived that medicine is important, we know that it is.” And by way, the analogy about the supermarket with the Indian food is making me hungry for curry. But I understand what you are trying to get at.
 
Although what you have written is refreshing and has a lot of truth in it, I think that this forum is for the staunch believers of “we don’t perceived that medicine is important, we know that it is.” And by way, the analogy about the supermarket with the Indian food is making me hungry for curry. But I understand what you are trying to get at.

I mean - by that logic aren't we abdicating any form of merit from a career in medicine? If lottery would be as valid, if not more valid than a means of selection, aren't we assuming then that there is no form of valid pre-selection which would make a student more qualified to be a practicing doctor. I don't know the research behind it, but I suspect universities must have seen correlation behind performance across things like interview performance, ATAR etc
 

chinaski

Regular Member
How so exactly? And when you say incorporatinig a lottery system, has some credible points - are you implying that there is merit to the random selection of applicants, and then banking on med school/ internship/residency to train the applicants over pre-selecting students according to the current system of UCAT/ATAR/Interview?

Any system of entry is inherently flawed. The current system, which is very much in the favour of people who have been fortunate to be born into circumstances that afford them elite schooling, tutoring and all the spoils of socioeconomic advantage is somewhat of a random selection already - they've won the lottery of life. So why not replace some biased elements with another broad form of lottery that levels the playing field somewhat? Fact is, you don't NEED an astronomically high high school mark in order to pass medical school, or to be a good doctor - as much as people like to believe it's a really hard course with really hard content, that is actually not the case. Ultimately there's always a hint of entitlement when people argue that only elite students should be admitted to certain courses - that they are the "deserving" or "most suited" to a certain path.

I'm also in favour of re-instituting a much higher attrition rate in medical school (approximately 1:3), as we had before the med schools started passing just about everyone, open slather. So yes, the onus would be on med schools to actually do their job and weed out people who should not proceed. Worth also noting that students who bowed to outside pressure for admission (ie "my parents want me to be a doctor" and "it would be a waste of my marks if I didn't do medicine") should also be empowered exit if they wish.
 

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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....... I get it now. Thank you.

That's about 80% correct. We suspect with good reasons there's a minimum interview score that below it means auto rejection. For example if we standardise the three components to scale of 0-100, you have two 100s in ATAR & UCAT but your interview is 25, total 225 = 75 weighted average. This would put you well into the top third for a place offer but your interview score disqualifies you (thus UNSW says scores are not averaged to cover these cases).
So many bl**dy hoops with these unis. Torture by design. With absolutely no evidence this whole circus actually produces 'better' doctors...
 

A1

Rookie Doc
Moderator
Torture by design. With absolutely no evidence this whole circus actually produces 'better' doctors...
Do keep in mind there's NOTHING the unis can use now to help select "better" future doctors. The best they can try is to select better students (i.e. less likely to fail or drop out) who have suitable characteristics to become doctors.
 

SLP

Bond MD I
So can I check if I've understood this correctly please? For UNSW, to get an interview, ATAR:UCAT are given 50:50 weighting to get a new 'rank'. Then interviews are offered based on this rank?

Then after interviews, it goes ATAR:UCAT:interview score, equal thirds weighting to each component, to generate a new rank again with which they make Med offers? Have I understood it all correctly?
Does that mean even if I didn't get a 99+ ATAR but my UCAT score can make up for it, I can get an interview? So my ATAR was around 98 but I managed to get a UCAT of 98th percentile (3210). Thanks in advance
 

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