IMG: Moving Back to Australia

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
If you refer to the link I supplied earlier, you'll see that this is not the only process that the standard pathway offers. There's also the option of obtaining employment, THEN going through AMC exams OR workplace assessment.

My understanding from reading the link :

The Standard pathway has two alternative processes leading to the award of the AMC Certificate:
  • Standard pathway (AMC examinations) - Assessment is by examination only - the AMC CAT MCQ Examination and the AMC Clinical Examination. Most non-specialist applicants will be assessed through this method.
  • Standard pathway (workplace-based assessment) - Assessment is by examination and workplace-based assessment - the AMC CAT MCQ Examination and workplace-based assessment of clinical skills and knowledge by an AMC-accredited authority.

So basically the AMC exam has two parts: the CAT MCQ exam + the 2nd part of either a Clinical exam or Workplace assessment of clinical skills. IOW it's not AMC exams or Workplace assessment.
 

chinaski

Regular Member
Yes, poorly written on my part: should have been a "+/-" rather than an "or" there - further underlining the importance of referring to the source rather than second-hand explanations of said source!
 

timtam28

Lurker
I'm wondering the same. I'm currently in my first year of MD course. I have Australian citizenship and would love to come to AU one day to work there. Would my entry requirements be any different to IMGs without AU citizenship? Does having completed MD than MBBS makes a difference?
 

chinaski

Regular Member
I'm wondering the same. I'm currently in my first year of MD course. I have Australian citizenship and would love to come to AU one day to work there. Would my entry requirements be any different to IMGs without AU citizenship?

What do you mean by "entry requirements" and at what point would you like to seek work in Australia? Additionally, in what country are you currently studying medicine?

Does having completed MD than MBBS makes a difference?

No.
 

timtam28

Lurker
What do you mean by "entry requirements" and at what point would you like to seek work in Australia? Additionally, in what country are you currently studying medicine?



No.
Thank you for your reply.
Entry Requirements as in any AMC exams/the pathway scheme (i don't know which one I qualify for). Would like to work ideally after graduation (I graduate in 2025). I know that not going to be the case since I'm an IMG. I'm studying in Cyprus.
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
Thank you for your reply.
Entry Requirements as in any AMC exams/the pathway scheme (i don't know which one I qualify for). Would like to work ideally after graduation (I graduate in 2025). I know that not going to be the case since I'm an IMG. I'm studying in Cyprus.

Cyprus is not recognised as a Competent Authority so that pathway is out. That leaves you with the Specialist pathway (which I will omit from this post) and the Standard pathway.

With the Standard pathway you need to sit the AMC CAT MCQ Exam + either the AMC Clinical Exam or secure employment to complete 12 months supervised practice (during which time you get Workplace-based assessment of clinical skills/knowledge) by an AMC-accredited authority.

If followed the AMC Clinical Exam path you then need to (a) complete a 12 month period of supervised practice in an approved position or (b) obtain an internship. The challenge is how are you going to obtain such position.

There's a flowchart in this link > Medical Board of Australia - Standard pathway
 

timtam28

Lurker
Cyprus is not recognised as a Competent Authority so that pathway is out. That leaves you with the Specialist pathway (which I will omit from this post) and the Standard pathway.

With the Standard pathway you need to sit the AMC CAT MCQ Exam + either the AMC Clinical Exam or secure employment to complete 12 months supervised practice (during which time you get Workplace-based assessment of clinical skills/knowledge) by an AMC-accredited authority.

If followed the AMC Clinical Exam path you then need to (a) complete a 12 month period of supervised practice in an approved position or (b) obtain an internship. The challenge is how are you going to obtain such position.

There's a flowchart in this link > Medical Board of Australia - Standard pathway
Thank you so much. I'm in my first year, but I had a sound idea of what I have to do when I graduate. This helped me a lot. Would you happen to know what I should do to prepare for the AMC MCQ exam? (Any past papers or books with questions
Is it similar to USMLE? My uni recommends us to take it in 3/4th year and they have lot of sources to help us with this. Is first-year too early for AMC/USMLE Study?
 

Ian Naga

Lurker
Thank you so much. I'm in my first year, but I had a sound idea of what I have to do when I graduate. This helped me a lot. Would you happen to know what I should do to prepare for the AMC MCQ exam? (Any past papers or books with questions
Is it similar to USMLE? My uni recommends us to take it in 3/4th year and they have lot of sources to help us with this. Is first-year too early for AMC/USMLE Study?

Check the doctor network forum:

As all MD students do USMLE, you may ask here:
HTH
 

redrock

BDSc (Qld) MD II/IV aspiring OMS
there are hundreds of other websites apart from MSO that have information on AMC/USMLE
this site is mainly for Australian high school students trying to get into med, and doesn't have much apart from admissions

But to answer your questions AMC and PLAB (UK) are definitely more clinically focused and the assessment is less rigourous compared to USMLE
I would only suggest starting AMC MCQ/clinical in your clinical years, pre-clinical will only cover USMLE step 1

AMC MCQ is comparable to USMLE 2CK, USMLE 1 is in a whole league of its own as it is very basic scienced focussed.

Usually, UK/EU citizens that leave the UK to study medicine in other EU countries are on equal standing to a UK local graduate, and they can go back to the UK and get GMC registration seamlessly. I don't think this applies for EU medical students who do not have EU citizenship, and with this whole Brexit thing going on I am not sure what things are going on in that side of the world...

For an IMG, I would recommend doing the USMLE and getting ECFMG certified as the USA is more IMG friendly (i.e if you do well in it, you still have a good chance at matching to family medicine or internal medicine). Statistically, about 50% of IMGs match into residency programs, obviously depending on how well your scores are (particularly step 1), research, rotations/US experience, letters of reccomendation etc.

In Australia, the AMC is pass/fail and no matter how well you do if you pass you are still in the same boat, its hard to find a job, and even if you do it will be non-training with an unclear path to accredited training/fellowship. whereas in the US you match to the speciality straight away.

American board certified specialists are also in a decent position to come to australia and get the local fellowship through the specialist pathway, as the training is similar (albeit a lot shorter). but this pathway is case-by-case basis and its still very difficult no matter which country you come from. also, policies are changing all the time and australia is really looking towards training their own specialists rather than importing from the specialist pathay.

pm me if you need any more details
 

chinaski

Regular Member
American board certified specialists are also in a decent position to come to australia and get the local fellowship through the specialist pathway, as the training is similar (albeit a lot shorter). but this pathway is case-by-case basis and its still very difficult no matter which country you come from.

Agree with the second sentence, and would place a lot of caution on the second. US training isn't necessarily viewed as similar enough by Australian standards. There are a few notable cases wherein recognition of US specialist qualifications (belonging to well-known clinicians) has not been granted by Australian bodies. As such, this can lead to extra training being mandated before one can get a ticket here.
 

redrock

BDSc (Qld) MD II/IV aspiring OMS
Agree with the second sentence, and would place a lot of caution on the second. US training isn't necessarily viewed as similar enough by Australian standards. There are a few notable cases wherein recognition of US specialist qualifications (belonging to well-known clinicians) has not been granted by Australian bodies. As such, this can lead to extra training being mandated before one can get a ticket here.

I definitely agree with you, and i would definitely reword my earlier post.

Generally, american board exams are no where close to the difficulty of the australian college fellowship exams

In addition, the training and health system is completely different. For example US internal medicine residency is only comparable to BPT, not an advanced training/FRACP general physician because the role of IM doctors in the USA is to work in primary care. RACGP also does not automatically recognise family medicine in the USA like it would recognise a UK MRCGP or NZ FRNZCGP

Historically, the only doctors that generally do okay in the specialist pathway are those with UK CCTs, but even they have issues sometimes

I think the overall message of this thread is that it is best to study medicine where you intend to practice - just because there are pathways for IMGs in place doesn't mean that you will get where you want seamlessly. IMGs have faced problems in Australia for well over 10 years
 

chinaski

Regular Member
Agree entirely. There really are no easy back doors or short cuts into practice in Australia (as much as people keep looking for them!).
 

Kinetica

Member
Hi All

I have completed 6 months of my MD degree overseas. (I'm an Australian citizen and resident). I continually read the barriers particularly pertaining to obtaining an internship for IMG's and am therefore attempting to reevaluate my options. Any suggestions of whether I should continue with my current course or should I seek a spot in Australia? (Captain Obvious you may say however here is my situation).

* I completed my degrees more than 10 years ago and my understanding is that all of the graduate programs only accept if study prior to 10 years ago.
* I did GAMSAT a few years ago prior to knowing the 10 year rule and scored 62 (Not great but not terrible I guess).
* I'm non-rural.
* I applied to JCU last 2 years but not even got a look in, even with a GPA of 6.7.

So, do I continue with my current degree and hope that I can secure an internship after completing the AMC exams (these don't worry me too much. Im used to exams). Or what other options do I have?

Thanks
 

chinaski

Regular Member
Captain Obvious still applies. If you want to get an internship in Australia, study in an Australian university. The AMC exams aren't the issue here; the fact will still be that Australia has no need to import PGY1 doctors, so even if you pass those exams with flying colours, the door still won't be open.
 

Kinetica

Member
Thanks Chin. Do you know recent stats on number of IMGs that applied and of which offered internship.

As for the suggestions, do you have any more specific info other than study in Australia?

Thanks
 

pi

Junior doctor
Emeritus Staff
Didn't we all warn you about these issues a year or so ago? Did you end up going to OUM? How do we know you're going to take any of our advice this time?
 

chinaski

Regular Member
Thanks Chin. Do you know recent stats on number of IMGs that applied and of which offered internship.

Nope, but I'd wager I could count them on one hand.

As for the suggestions, do you have any more specific info other than study in Australia?

Look into schools without a 10-year rule on first degree, supplement your first degree with further study so you are eligible for grad schools with a 10-year rule, study for GAMSAT, work on your portfolio. But you knew all of this already, surely. There is no other way to be competitive to get a job as PGY1 in Australia. You can't turn an overseas medical degree into gold here.
 

Kinetica

Member
Didn't we all warn you about these issues a year or so ago? Did you end up going to OUM?
You did yes but figured I may as well make a start rather than sit around wondering what to do. The course is good thanks.

Let's be clear I'm not bitter and twisted I've simply gone ahead with the option of obtaining my degree as I'm adamant I want to be a doctor. It's just a shame that Australian uni's have put all these restrictions on entry. I'm only asking as I'm not sure if the landscape has changed since last year or not.

Nope, but I'd wager I could count them on one hand.



Look into schools without a 10-year rule on first degree, supplement your first degree with further study so you are eligible for grad schools with a 10-year rule, study for GAMSAT, work on your portfolio. But you knew all of this already, surely. There is no other way to be competitive to get a job as PGY1 in Australia.
I wonder if my studies with OUM would count as recent studies?
 

chinaski

Regular Member
Let's be clear I'm not bitter and twisted I've simply gone ahead with the option of obtaining my degree as I'm adamant I want to be a doctor. It's just a shame that Australian uni's have put all these restrictions on entry. I'm only asking as I'm not sure if the landscape has changed since last year or not.

Australian universities have not restricted the provision of PGY1 jobs - the healthcare sector has - and I am fully supportive of this (as are most people in the system, I think you'll find). Perhaps you could look into being a doctor in the country in which you are studying, given that the landscape - unsurprisingly - has not changed, and is not likely to do so.
 

Ian Naga

Lurker
Hi All

I have completed 6 months of my MD degree overseas. (I'm an Australian citizen and resident). I continually read the barriers particularly pertaining to obtaining an internship for IMG's and am therefore attempting to reevaluate my options. Any suggestions of whether I should continue with my current course or should I seek a spot in Australia? (Captain Obvious you may say however here is my situation).

* I completed my degrees more than 10 years ago and my understanding is that all of the graduate programs only accept if study prior to 10 years ago.
* I did GAMSAT a few years ago prior to knowing the 10 year rule and scored 62 (Not great but not terrible I guess).
* I'm non-rural.
* I applied to JCU last 2 years but not even got a look in, even with a GPA of 6.7.

So, do I continue with my current degree and hope that I can secure an internship after completing the AMC exams (these don't worry me too much. Im used to exams). Or what other options do I have?

Thanks
No straight path. Your best bet would have been to do another Bachelors in Australia (perhaps an accelerated 2 year Bachelors and preferably from a Uni located in a rural area like CDU (Darwin). That way you could come under the rural preference for NT medicine for example. You moved countries and hence moving within Australia shouldn't be an issue I presume.

Depending on where overseas, it is not straight forward and could be extremely difficult. Be prepared to work where you are doing your MD or elsewhere. The easier route would be to do the medical degree in England as you are guaranteed Foundation year F1 and F2 (equivalent to our PGY1/PGY2-internship/residency). Then use a route like this to get back:

I think it is best to stay away from Ireland as F1 is hard to get there.
If you are not doing medicine in England/US/Canada, and if your sole aim is to work in Australia, you should seriously reconsider.

Best wishes.
 
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