Interesting data from the medical training review panel

[Mana]

Slightly worrying that you recall things said by strangers on the internet so far back. I was aware you'd started one degree and finished somewhere else, but I hadn't cared to pry much further.

I remember you posting as a registrar in earlier days on MSO, so I don't think this instance is particularly special.

 

[chinaski]

I don't recall the content of non-descript messages a week ago, let alone going back years...

 

[lordgarlic]

Seeing as Chinaski and Mana are both floating around I guess I should add my thoughts as well.

I agree with Chinaski that higher attrition rates would actually do some good. These days in New Zealand the RMO market is nearing saturation at the PGY1/2 level and I've had some students come through that have been of significantly dubious quality in bot character and knowledge. Unfortunately some people view 'failing' students as difficult because of the paperwork involved. What it means is that there are people who are 'failing' technically but scraping by

 

[Nicholas]

Seeing as Chinaski and Mana are both floating around I guess I should add my thoughts as well.

I agree with Chinaski that higher attrition rates would actually do some good. These days in New Zealand the RMO market is nearing saturation at the PGY1/2 level and I've had some students come through that have been of significantly dubious quality in bot character and knowledge. Unfortunately some people view 'failing' students as difficult because of the paperwork involved. What it means is that there are people who are 'failing' technically but scraping by

With how competitive medicine entry is, even in New Zealand, how do these students even get admitted to the course in the first place?

 

[chinaski]

With how competitive medicine entry is, even in New Zealand, how do these students even get admitted to the course in the first place?

Same phenomenon occurs across the ditch. Being good at high school or passing exams or interviews isn't a guarantee you're going to be an OK med student or doctor. Ditto, "passion" for medicine isn't a sustaining factor, nor does it bestow an entitlement to study the course.

 

[lordgarlic]

With how competitive medicine entry is, even in New Zealand, how do these students even get admitted to the course in the first place?

It just happens that the two universities in New Zealand still highly prioritize GPA and academic grades more so than any other component for selection to medical school. It's 60% at Auckland and 66% down in Otago so naturally everyone is already "academically" capable. However, just because some is academically capable it doesn't mean they will cope nor enjoy medical studies. There are likely still students who do it because they are coerced by families to or do it because of the "passion" for helping people but they find out soon after that the passion fizzles out rather fast.

 

[lisanyao]

This is still the case at Adelaide today - the left, right thing and the B.Med Sci (equivalent) if you finish 3 years and then are not permitted to proceed. (It is slightly changed in that some of the students left and right that are gone do still end up finishing medicine, though not in the initial expected timeframe).

However, in the past, the B Med Sci was a bit more useful in terms of career prospects than it is now (owing to the significant number of other universities who have now started their own B. Med Sci courses for people who are hoping for that chance, however slim, to get into medicine). I agree with the possibility of higher attrition, as long as the graduates of the B. Med Sci are given the opportunity to pursue something else at the university with a reasonable track record, rather than attempt a transfer with a less-than-pass average GPA owing to non-graded passes.

For the medical profession on the whole, I think the higher attrition rates is a great idea, but it has to come with a corresponding increase in quality of medical teaching and student care (both of which are rather variable between universities).

However, as it stands right now, if you were a year 12 student about to commence medicine, it's obviously factors into your decision that if given the choice you would choose a university where you stood the best chance of graduating with the degree you intended to, hence my advice to students above.

As from data, the attrition rate of UAdelaide is not higher than other Unis in 2014. University/drop number: Adelaide/2, Flinders/3, Monash UG/7, UNSW/3, UWS/2.

 

[Mana]

As from data, the attrition rate of UAdelaide is not higher than other Unis in 2014. University/drop number: Adelaide/2, Flinders/3, Monash UG/7, UNSW/3, UWS/2.

Nope, you're reading the table for attrition rates for "commencing students" (i.e. first year students). Scroll down to page 43 and you'll see the attrition rates for students *leaving not by choice*.

 

[lisanyao]

Nope, you're reading the table for attrition rates for "commencing students" (i.e. first year students). Scroll down to page 43 and you'll see the attrition rates for students *leaving not by choice*.

You are right, Mana. Is the high attrition of UAdelaide related to its selection criteria which puts over-emphasis on interview and low ATAR cutoff?

 

[Mana]

You are right, Mana. Is the high attrition of UAdelaide related to its selection criteria which puts over-emphasis on interview and low ATAR cutoff?

There is no overemphasis on interview - it is worth the same as ATAR cutoff.

I would probably attribute more of the attrition to the assessment within the program itself than to the selection criteria. As stated before - the highest mark at Adelaide, an A, is achieved by scoring 65%, while 49% will result in a fail mark. Given this narrow window (and left-skewing of marks) it's not surprising the attrition rate is so high, especially when you see that the fail rate per year is approximately 10% of the cohort.

Interestingly, it seems the attrition rate for international students(2/25?=8%) is lower than domestic students (39/145?=26.9). What's reason behind?

Good question. I think the fact that Singaporean students make up a significant proportion of the international students, and that there are also Malaysian scholarship students (i.e. person scored highest in their state for year 12 back there) may partially explain this - those students tend to be rather high quality academically.

 

[heart]

Just bring a similar style of exams like the USMLEs to Australia for a higher attrition rate as it would also require all universities to keep their standards high.

 

[karenh]

Mod edit: below discussion moved here from offers thread. - LMG.

Just for context for panicking Aussie/NZ school leavers, Sen is an international applicant

I'll leave this post here as it may be a question that comes up for some other lucky people at some point.

Sen, Adelaide ~used to have the highest non-finishing (ie. getting as far as second year but either dropping out/failing out before degree completion) rate in the country by a LONG way (for whatever reason), but I believe some of the causes have been addressed.

What you said about Adel is interesting! Was there a new report released with a lower failure rate? Or is this inside info?

 

[Mana]

What you said about Adel is interesting! Was there a new report released with a lower failure rate? Or is this inside info?

It's pretty public info - you can read the thread with the publication linked to it at Interesting data from the medical training review panel
- however the 20th publication hasn't been released yet to see if those numbers have been rectified.

 

[karenh]

It's pretty public info - you can read the thread with the publication linked to it at Interesting data from the medical training review panel
- however the 20th publication hasn't been released yet to see if those numbers have been rectified.

Yep, stumbled on that thread before when I was procrastinating during yr 12! Thanks Mana for that
Oh ok, perhaps LMG was referring to some measures Adel put in place. But I guess we don't know its effects yet since, like you said Mana, the 20th publication hasn't been released

 

[Sen]

It's pretty public info - you can read the thread with the publication linked to it at Interesting data from the medical training review panel
- however the 20th publication hasn't been released yet to see if those numbers have been rectified.

Just for context for panicking Aussie/NZ school leavers, Sen is an international applicant

I'll leave this post here as it may be a question that comes up for some other lucky people at some point.

Sen, Adelaide ~used to have the highest non-finishing (ie. getting as far as second year but either dropping out/failing out before degree completion) rate in the country by a LONG way (for whatever reason), but I believe some of the causes have been addressed.

Holy damn 33 per cent oh my god what is happening over there. When you said high I was expecting 5% maybe but one thirds is crazy hahaha. do you know what some of the causes were? It would be much appreciated

 

[Mana]

Holy damn 33 per cent oh my god what is happening over there. When you said high I was expecting 5% maybe but one thirds is crazy hahaha. do you know what some of the causes were? It would be much appreciated

Just to clarify - it's not that 33% never finish the degree, it's that Adelaide's medical school, despite being less than 5% of the medical student population, accounts for more than 33% of non-first year attrition (i.e. people leaving the course before completing it) in Australia.

From some connections in the course and some personal experience, some of the reasons include subjective marking and discrimination against some particular ethnicities, as well as difficult pass-marks. As I think I mentioned in that thread, the highest mark, an "A", is awarded for a 65% - i.e. you are at the highest bracket of achievers within that cohort if you achieve 65%; a "B" is between 55-65%, and a "C" is between 50-55%. This means that for the majority of people, there is actually very little margin between their achieved mark and a fail mark.

Additionally, coupled with the fact that there was (and still is, possibly) no recourse if you fail to achieve 50% in ANY particular exam other than repeating the ENTIRE year (i.e. no academic supplementary exams for those who fail even if it's by 1 mark), and the fact that if you fail more than one year, you're usually out (if you're an international you are ALWAYS out if you fail twice), I'm surprised that the attrition rate is not higher.

 

[Sen]

Just to clarify - it's not that 33% never finish the degree, it's that Adelaide's medical school, despite being less than 5% of the medical student population, accounts for more than 33% of non-first year attrition (i.e. people leaving the course before completing it) in Australia.

From some connections in the course and some personal experience, some of the reasons include subjective marking and discrimination against some particular ethnicities, as well as difficult pass-marks. As I think I mentioned in that thread, the highest mark, an "A", is awarded for a 65% - i.e. you are at the highest bracket of achievers within that cohort if you achieve 65%; a "B" is between 55-65%, and a "C" is between 50-55%. This means that for the majority of people, there is actually very little margin between their achieved mark and a fail mark.

Additionally, coupled with the fact that there was (and still is, possibly) no recourse if you fail to achieve 50% in ANY particular exam other than repeating the ENTIRE year (i.e. no academic supplementary exams for those who fail even if it's by 1 mark), and the fact that if you fail more than one year, you're usually out (if you're an international you are ALWAYS out if you fail twice), I'm surprised that the attrition rate is not higher.

Thanks for the info- the ethnicity part is rather concerning, seems very unprofessional. So what you are saying is, the exams are harder and marking is biased compared to other schools, such as Flinders? Cheers!

 

[Ruffle]

Thanks for the info- the ethnicity part is rather concerning, seems very unprofessional.

Hope that's gotten better, doesn't sound like something that should happen in this day and age. Anyone here who currently goes to Adelaide able to comment?

 

[justwondering]

Just to clarify - it's not that 33% never finish the degree, it's that Adelaide's medical school, despite being less than 5% of the medical student population, accounts for more than 33% of non-first year attrition (i.e. people leaving the course before completing it) in Australia.

From some connections in the course and some personal experience, some of the reasons include subjective marking and discrimination against some particular ethnicities, as well as difficult pass-marks. As I think I mentioned in that thread, the highest mark, an "A", is awarded for a 65% - i.e. you are at the highest bracket of achievers within that cohort if you achieve 65%; a "B" is between 55-65%, and a "C" is between 50-55%. This means that for the majority of people, there is actually very little margin between their achieved mark and a fail mark.

Additionally, coupled with the fact that there was (and still is, possibly) no recourse if you fail to achieve 50% in ANY particular exam other than repeating the ENTIRE year (i.e. no academic supplementary exams for those who fail even if it's by 1 mark), and the fact that if you fail more than one year, you're usually out (if you're an international you are ALWAYS out if you fail twice), I'm surprised that the attrition rate is not higher.

Any updated report on the attrition rate in University of Adelaide ?
Thanks

 

[A1]

Any updated report on the attrition rate in University of Adelaide ?
Thanks

Please see this post > Choosing Between Universities