School students discussion/enquiries

Discussion in 'NZ General Discussion' started by Hari, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. Hari

    Hari Member

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    Hi

    I am currently a year 13 student doing NCEA sadly :( But i remember reading somewhere that CIE students find HSFY relatively ok because it is similar? Please correct me if i am wrong.

    I was considering taking AS level Bio Chem Physics and Thinking skills

    If i had known earlier I would have done the A levels but its too late for that now.

    Will i really gain Leverage if i do take the CIE AS level exams this year?
     
  2. the_international

    the_international Member

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    Hey seriously I did NCEA it didnt really matter, alot of the stuff from chem is in year13, and alot of the physics is in year12/13 too they teach you the type of thinking required anyway I didnt really feel disadvantaged doing NCEA as although the material may differ the study techniques I learnt were what really mattered. Alot of people will try discouraging you for doing NCEA, ignore them it wont make any difference.
     
  3. greenglacier

    greenglacier Emeritus MSO Staff Emeritus

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    Oh dear, this could cause a fuss... CIE vs. NCEA has been debated on this forum before (most recently in the last week), so it's a polarising issue and I wouldn't expect any consensus.

    This is my opinion on the matter (though there's a reasonable chance someone will contradict it... just a warning in advance):

    If you are a capable student (getting a good mix of M's and E's) then you're bright enough to get into medicine, and I honestly wouldn't worry about what system you're under. About the only thing that people here will agree on is that CIE does cover more of the HSFY material. However, it is all taught during HSFY as though you've never done it before, and if you're a capable student you'll be able to pick it up. In fact, I've seen NCEA students do better than CIE students because they are always on the ball, learning everything in HSFY (because more of it is new), while the CIE students often get affected by a degree of complacency which isn't always justified. Personally I am of the belief that, although it doesn't cover as much HSFY content, NCEA gives a better grounding in academic and critical thinking than CIE, which will be more useful to you in the long term (certainly I found my NCEA background to really get useful once I moved into med).

    The next thing is that CIE physics doesn't cover any more content relevant to HSFY than NCEA physics, so the only area you would gain something tangible is in bio and chem, and to be honest, if it was just to AS level, I find it very hard to see either of those giving you that much more content than NCEA level 3. Also, wouldn't only doing AS make it a lot more difficult to even get UE?

    My advice would be to definitely stick to NCEA.
     
  4. lordgarlic

    lordgarlic MSO Kiwi #1 Emeritus

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    Sigh opening the old kettle of fish again.

    Greenglacier and I have completely opposing views as to which system is better. For a purely 1 year trying to get into medicine blitz, I prefer CIE purely because it makes your life easier. HOWEVER, you can't get complacent at all. I shall reinforce that there is no critical thinking involved in 1st year courses in general. It's purely what I like to call sponge learning because you soak it in and squeeze out as much as you can.

    Frankly if you are a capable student it doesn't matter what system you are coming from. If you are willing to work hard then you will set yourself up right for the year. As long as your Ms and Es are genuinely earnt (i.e. not "taught" in the sense you do your practice assessment, get it corrected then submit the corrected for the actual internal assessment to get an inflated mark) then you will be in good steed
     
  5. paul

    paul New Member

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    making subject choices

    hi im an yr13 student doing NCEA lv3 this year...

    and i am working towards health siences first year for next year in otago.

    i was just wandering if lv2 physics would be good enough for the biological physics paper.

    because i was thinking of taking

    Math with calculus
    Math with statistics
    Biology
    Chemistry
    Geography

    taking statistics instead of lv3 physics because i know i would get much better marks.

    please tell me if taking lv2 physics will be good or not...

    thank you~!!
     
  6. Ben

    Ben (╯°□°)╯︵ǝuᴉluosʇuǝpnʇ spǝɯ

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    There's probably no reason for you to 'get much better marks' if you're aiming for entrance into Med from HSFY since HSFY is pretty much open entry and your application for Med is based solely on your performance during HSFY; not NCEA level3.

    I'm going into HSFY in Feb so I can't say from experience... but from what I've heard irl and on the forums, I'd suggest taking level 3 Physics or *atleast* level 2 Physics, instead of Geo or Calc (since I'd guess these are the least helpful for HSFY) - if not, there's always the summer bridging/jumpstart (?) Physics course at the University.
     
  7. 4everAlone

    4everAlone Regular Member

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    I can't speak for Otago but I can speak for Auckland, and personally I would be taking physics. Last year I had a friend that had done no physics at school and seriously struggled to pass our physics paper, and he was a pretty smart guy. Another of my friends had done level 2 but not level 3 physics, and did much better (found his level 2 background was very useful!).

    Regardless of which one you decide to do, I don't think getting accepted into HSFY should be a problem, and I think that having a background in physics would be worthwhile. Then again that is only my personal opinion, and you may decide that enjoying statistics/better marks make that the better subject to do. And I'm sure others on here will have other opinions to share!
     
  8. smile

    smile Member

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    I think it would be a very wise decision to take level 3 physics this year. The physics paper is very similar to level 3 physics so without it I think you would possibly be a bit disadvantaged. Physics is also one of the papers where, if you are good at physics, you can potentially score a very high mark in so it would be advantageous to you to have a really good grounding in physics on which to build on in phsi191. If I were you I would switch either calculus or geography for physics :)
    But enjoy your year 13, there's plenty of time to study hard next year!
     
  9. greenglacier

    greenglacier Emeritus MSO Staff Emeritus

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    There isn't that much content in PHSI191 that is in L3 physics but not L2 physics (just basic simple harmonic motion, capacitors, mass-energy equivalence, and the wave-particle duality of light). At the same time, physics is a deceptively difficult subject, and taking L3 physics would also help you in that you'd be able to reinforce previous learning, along with ensuring it remains fresh in your mind (because PHSI191 launches straight into it, no beating around the bushes).

    If you feel you had a good grasp of L2 physics (mostly E's, with some M's), then you could get away without L3. Regardless of how you went in L2 I'd still definitely recommend doing L3 though.

    If you do choose to do physics, dump calculus. Chemistry, biology, and stats are all relevant to HSFY and med. Calculus and geography are both completely irrelevant, but geography has some use in that some previous study in the humanities is helpful in med.
     
  10. skyglow1

    skyglow1 Regular Member

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    If you had to choose between L3 and AS, then definitely L3!!

    Just a few minor points, NCEA might promote critical thinking, which may be more useful in the long term, but if you're a high school student who's aim is to get into med school, personally I'd worry about actually getting into med school first before anything else! If I was a high school student, I'd want the course that gives me the best preparation for HSFY, which would be A level chem + bio and AS level physics. And it's not like critical thinking is absent from cambridge either, but it doesn't matter because like lordgalic has said, HSFY has no critical thinking.

    CIE physics does cover more content I believe, but only marginally. I'm not entirely familiar with NCEA physics, but I don't think you do bulk materials in NCEA physics, whereas it's done in CIE (stress, strain, etc.)

    But yeah, if you had to choose between AS and L3 then L3 is the very very obvious choice.
     
  11. frootloop

    frootloop Otago Trainee Intern (MBChB VI) Moderator

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    It is probably a little late now, but from what I've seen so far of HSFY, calculus won't help you very much/ at all (so long as you can plug numbers into a calculator). However, what it ISN'T too late to say is: enjoy year 13, because next year will be painful :D although, that said, pay attention in chem, physics, and bio at school. I know if I'd actually paid attention in/showed up to more physics and chem classes, I wouldn't have to be doing quite as much work now :D
     
  12. Cathay

    Cathay Where's my bus?! Emeritus

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    Yeah, contrary to the popular opinion that when you go to uni you get told "forget all you've learned, it's all a lie", it's more like expanding on what you learned at school, and taking some parts further, explaining things that are previously just said to be "just the way it is", and understanding the previous material will make your life easier.

    PS: don't discredit L3 bio entirely (as some have done in the past) - the genetics part, with the transcription and translation and what not, are highly relevant, as are the Mendelian genetics.
     
  13. frootloop

    frootloop Otago Trainee Intern (MBChB VI) Moderator

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    As Cathay just said, L3 bio IS useful. Personally (I don't know how it is taught at other schools), I've found that the CELS191 course is practically identical to L3 bio, at least for the first two months or so. And tbh, the only subject where there are any real apparent 'lies' from high school is chemistry, I haven't found many in other subjects. But, as outlined above, mostly they aren't so much 'lies', as partial truths ;)
     
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  14. Cathay

    Cathay Where's my bus?! Emeritus

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    Actually, that's probably true, but I haven't really noticed - my chemistry teacher always did tell us about the bits that we should write in an exam but "it's not exactly like that in real life - you'll learn more about this next year"... I guess there are certain advantages to having been in the extension chem class, lol...

    (Oh, also chem olympiad overlaps quite extensively with CHEM191 material, but I didn't pay very much attention while I was there...)
     
  15. frootloop

    frootloop Otago Trainee Intern (MBChB VI) Moderator

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    You did chem olympiad? Champ!
     
  16. Cathay

    Cathay Where's my bus?! Emeritus

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    Uhhh, I was reasonably unimpressive at that... Went so far as to go to the training camp, where they selected 4 + 1 (reserve) out of 23. I nearly didn't go because at that point I had signed myself up for more things in my life than I can actually do (without overloading), went there anyway knowing I'd rather not get in, and hence didn't try very hard at all and didn't get into the actual team.

    Was a good experience though, the theory left just enough impression in my then-unattentive mind to allow the CHEM191 thus far to make sense without much difficulty, and the practicals (where apparently I didn't do too badly compared to the rest of the guys, unlike my theory exam) overlap extensively with our labs - in fact 3 of our labs are the exact same as ChO experiments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  17. frootloop

    frootloop Otago Trainee Intern (MBChB VI) Moderator

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    Your chem background is much more impressive than mine then :lol: MAAN in L3 chem is not exactly impressive (n)
     
  18. paul

    paul New Member

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    Auckland Otago, NCEA results

    HI guys
    I know that Otago just requires UE and Auckland, for biomed 240points and healthsci 210
    But i know that for future med students UE or 240 shouldnt be a goal.

    So i just wanted to ask you guys' opinion on how many Es or Ms you think you should be getting out of 5 LV3 subjects (about 120 credits in total), if you are looking towards getting in medicine after the first year courses. I know that the NCEA subjects are quite irrelevant to University subjects and courses, but the Es and Ms you get should sort of show your capabilities or determination... (my thought only..)

    So please post your thoughts and opinions~! or what you had achieved as yr13s (although it wont be too easy remember :lol:)

    I know this kinda seems idiotic.. but just wanted to see what i should be aiming at and whether or not i am up to the standard i should be in.

    Thank you~!!
     
  19. 4everAlone

    4everAlone Regular Member

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    Just putting it out there in year 13 my thoughts were totally different...I did as little work as possible but made sure I got the required number of points for Auckland. This was because I knew that first year would be one heck of a lot of work and that year 13 really had no correlation with first year...
    This is something I still stand behind. Enjoy your free time while you have it, and ncea really has no correlation with uni results (at least in Auckland imo) as the content, structure, teaching, and examination is so totally different.
    Totally just realised I didn't answer your question but oh well
     
  20. Cathay

    Cathay Where's my bus?! Emeritus

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    I'm with 4everAlone. Although, mind you, I'm still a health sci (whose first real exam is tomorrow >.>), so my views may be different from that of veterans, but since I'm addressing the matter of exams, it should be an area where my views have some validity (since I'm preparing for 4)...

    NCEA subjects are not all irrelevant, but the grades are - they're not irrelevant because they're not teaching the same thing, they're irrelevant because they're not assessing the same thing. Let's take an example: whereas L3 chemistry wants you to discuss the crap out of the underlying laws of the universe behind a redox reaction, in CHEM191 you'll be balancing equations, plugging into formulae, reciting some definition from lectures, and such...

    My point is: NCEA is a crap predictor of how you'll do in first year, because the system is so different. Excellence in NCEA requires depth of understanding, whereas first year uni all you're asked to do is remember what they said, have a go at understanding it, and recall it in the exam - the difficulty here lies in the volume of information. Take L3 Aqueous Systems (when you get to doing it), squeeze it into four 50-minute lectures, now multiply it by 7-8 (there are 50 lectures, but not all lectures are made equal), squeeze all of it into 10 weeks of lectures, then multiply the whole lot by 4 (there are four papers in each semester), and imagine being examined on EVERYTHING at the end of, what is it, the 11th week? (Don't worry, that's probably an overestimate, and when you're stuck into it doing the work, you don't feel it much)

    Also, in NCEA, not all questions are made equal: there are questions that you just know are achieved, or merit, or excellence (because it says describe, explain, discuss), and there's a jump in difficulty with each level. Uni exams have questions with mark values (like old school cert exams, if your maths teachers showed you any), and it's your total marks that count - no one will judge you if you dodged both 5-mark questions but got everything else right and got an A+, whereas NCEA will put you down to merit rightaway if you don't do the excellence questions.

    NCEA and Uni work hugely different, and as has been said, do what you want with Year 13, don't take it too seriously (but don't fail UE either), and certainly don't try to determine whether you're med material by your NCEA scores - I've only outlined some of the reasons why your uni marks will be hugely different from your NCEA marks, and I haven't even started to address how you're studying methods and effectiveness will change when you're at uni, or how being in a hall (or not being in a hall) can affect you. Uni is a whole different world out there, and to succeed is to adapt - studying methods, exam techniques, and even the way of thinking is entirely different from NCEA, so I don't believe your NCEA marks matter at all (beyond getting you admitted).

    Sure, high achievers in NCEA will probably continue high-achieving (if they adapt their methods and not fall behind), but for the most part, there's nothing at all to stop low achievers of NCEA to overtake the high achievers of NCEA in uni by doing the right things, the right way, in the right timeframe. For your reference, let me quote one of our health sci MSOers:
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011

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