Studying Medicine Overseas

[GMC]

Hello,

I am a year 10 student (yes, I know, still pretty young to be thinking about this) and I really want to study medicine. However, I am sure that I don't want to do it here. I have been thinking about studying in Europe (UK, France, Scandinavia + others) but want to know about possible problems associated with this. I am aware that having obtained a degree from another country, it can be difficult to return to Australia, but what about working in that country? Language is not necessarily a problem as I am fluent in French and can get around in Norwegian. And I am also quite indecisive, so I fear beginning a course only to find I don't like it.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated xx

 

[Mana]

In my signature is a link titled "Common Pitfalls to avoid" - give that a read and then ask any further questions after you've read it.

 

[chinaski]

Much of the answer to your question will hinge on whether you are entitled to citizenship in any of the European countries that interest you. As a member of the EU, your right to reside and work in aligned countries is secure, and miles easier than if you come as a foreigner. Bear in mind, Brexit will soon mean that the UK is stand alone, as are other countries that do not belong to the EU (which includes Norway).

 

[GMC]

In my signature is a link titled "Common Pitfalls to avoid" - give that a read and then ask any further questions after you've read it.

Thank you for your help! So, you'd definitely advise against it? What about studying interstate? I live in Melbourne, would studying in any other state increase/decrease my chances?

 

[chinaski]

Thank you for your help! So, you'd definitely advise against it? What about studying interstate? I live in Melbourne, would studying in any other state increase/decrease my chances?

Increase or decrease your chances of what, exactly? Working overseas? Working in Australia? You're all over the place here.

 

[GMC]

Increase or decrease your chances of what, exactly? Working overseas? Working in Australia? You're all over the place here.

Increase/decrease chances of getting in to a uni, then getting an internship.

 

[Mana]

Increase/decrease chances of getting in to a uni, then getting an internship.

If you are an Australian citizen and you gain entry into an Australian medical school in a CSP/BMP spot, provided things don't drastically change, you'll be guaranteed an internship somewhere in Australia (no guarantees that it will be where you want it to be, of course).

If you apply interstate and in-state, you obviously increase your chances of getting in over only applying in-state. As a general rule, the first internship (and potentially the only internship) you'll be offered will be in the state in which you complete your medical school training (so, for example, if you went to UNSW, you'd be guaranteed an internship somewhere in NSW).

 

[chinaski]

Increase/decrease chances of getting in to a uni, then getting an internship.

As per Mana, assuming you have competitive scores, the more universities you apply to in Australia, the greater your chances of getting into a course, and obtaining a job thereafter. But, you stated in your original post that "...I really want to study medicine. However, I am sure that I don't want to do it here" - which suggests to me that you probably first need to think about your motivations for wanting to study in a particular place, in the context of what you want in the long term. Studying and working overseas (as per the subject of your first post) is an entirely reasonable option if you WANT immigrate and establish yourself there. However, if you want to work in Australia, you're silly to consider studying elsewhere (which you already seem to understand, going by your first post).

 

[Numerouno]

Hi could you please guide me as to how is the process of admissions at bond ... what order of preference should I put it on coz my son has terrible ucat score.. so Wil probably opt for jcu or bond... also what is the minimum atar required at both these universities?

Hi Mysra, sorry to hear the statement about your son's performance. There is nothing like a "terrible" score in the UCAT exams, please be supportive, encourage and help him out. Maybe he did not get to his full potential on the day and secured a below-par (maybe) score. I am on a break from the UK after finishing the first year MBBS (I did the UKCAT in 2017- Should I call >3000 a super score, I do not know). Although my score in UMAT 94%ile was not too bad with ATAR 99.20, I assumed that I was not competitive in the interviews for totally unknown reasons. I did not get selected into any university in Australia ( I did not attend interviews at UAdel, Curtin, UWA) as I had already enrolled for Medicine overseas. I am off to the UK for my second year next month and jumped into this forum. JCU, as I understand, will call for interviews based on the answers for four questions that everyone needs to complete (offer could range usually from ATAR 97 upwards based on interview performance for a non-standard). I am hitting it from the top of my head without much analysis on the scores in the past year, so others may help you out with details. Good luck with your son's search for an MBBS admission in Australia.

 

[CHALLENGER]

Hi Mysra, sorry to hear the statement about your son's performance. There is nothing like a "terrible" score in the UCAT exams, please be supportive, encourage and help him out. Maybe he did not get to his full potential on the day and secured a below-par (maybe) score. I am on a break from the UK after finishing the first year MBBS (I did the UKCAT in 2017- Should I call >3000 a super score, I do not know). Although my score in UMAT 94%ile was not too bad with ATAR 99.20, I assumed that I was not competitive in the interviews for totally unknown reasons. I did not get selected into any university in Australia ( I did not attend interviews at UAdel, Curtin, UWA) as I had already enrolled for Medicine overseas. I am off to the UK for my second year next month and jumped into this forum. JCU, as I understand, will call for interviews based on the answers for four questions that everyone needs to complete (offer could range usually from ATAR 97 upwards based on interview performance for a non-standard). I am hitting it from the top of my head without much analysis on the scores in the past year, so others may help you out with details. Good luck with your son's search for an MBBS admission in Australia.

Hi Numeruno
how expensive to do medicine in UK. I heard you have to enrol through UCAS. by the time HSC results are released this registration is over as far as I know..How do we do this. iS it realistic with UCAt score of 2820. Not done biologybut Chem,maths ,English and economics are done.
thank you in advance.

 

[Numerouno]

Hi Numeruno
how expensive to do medicine in UK. I heard you have to enrol through UCAS. by the time HSC results are released this registration is over as far as I know..How do we do this. iS it realistic with UCAt score of 2820. Not done biologybut Chem,maths ,English and economics are done.
thank you in advance.

The tuition fee is different depending on the location and the universities that you choose. Definitely 2820 UCAT is a good score and very competitive. You are correct in saying that HSC results will not be out by the time registration is closed in UCAS by October 2019. You can only apply for 2020 entry in the UK which will commence in Aug-Sep 2020. You can use the UCAT score of 2019 for admission in 2020. The Academic year is offset by 6 months compared to Australia.

Most if not all universities require Biology (unlike here) but they may waive Physics for high-level Maths, Chemistry is a MUST but please check through the mandatory subjects requirements for Medicine under each university. You can check for the tuition fee and accommodation under your preferred universities as they change every year. Good luck.

 

[CHALLENGER]

The tuition fee is different depending on the location and the universities that you choose. Definitely 2820 UCAT is a good score and very competitive. You are correct in saying that HSC results will not be out by the time registration is closed in UCAS by October 2019. You can only apply for 2020 entry in the UK which will commence in Aug-Sep 2020. You can use the UCAT score of 2019 for admission in 2020. The Academic year is offset by 6 months compared to Australia.

Most if not all universities require Biology (unlike here) but they may waive Physics for high-level Maths, Chemistry is a MUST but please check through the mandatory subjects requirements for Medicine under each university. You can check for the tuition fee and accommodation under your preferred universities as they change every year. Good luck.

thank you for your lengthy reply. Like here in Australia can you do some part time job while studying.

 

[Numerouno]

thank you for your lengthy reply. Like here in Australia can you do some part-time job while studying.

Opportunities are available...but I highly doubt if you can balance the Medicine workloads with the part-time job, highly impossible in my case. But each one is different. The fear of getting eliminated from the course runs from the day you step in for class 1. The reason being if you did not make the cut off of pass threshold in any of the learning domains (usually set around the high 50s like 58% with the exception year 3 around 65%), you are given one resit and if there is a miss again, you are onya flight back. It is so cruel and so tough.

Last month, we had 22 students failed in 5th year and one above my cohort in 2017, 20% of students were sent home after failing in year 1 resit. The pity is that many achieved a score above 50% which is generally a "pass" here (I think) but did not reach the cut off pass threshold which is another Einstein equation like our HSC scaling/moderation and set by the university. I can't comment on how the assessment and marking work here in Medicine (probably be the same pass threshold and not just 50% pass). This post is not to scare anyone but the reality is reflected. My senior got ousted after scoring 54.65 in the resit when the cut off was 55.50 ( a mere 0.85 less) in the second year. You are allowed to repeat a full year only in year 5, all other years you must resit within 6 weeks, so fate is decided very soon.

In my class in the first year, many failed in OSCE but one student having passed 7 out of 8 stations still did not reach the pass threshold of 76.65 ( the marking is weird) and had to resit which happened last week. Really scary...I managed a 90.00 having failed marginally in one station but secured almost full scores in other 7 stations. Lucky! So, it's not given that you will become a"Doctor" just by joining the course and working part-time on top adds to the misery in my opinion...but again everyone's cognitive level is different. In my year, no one worked part-time to give you an example. Hope that explains your question although I apologize that I digressed a bit. I thought I must paint a true picture for the sake of everyone in what to expect if they manage a medical admission in the UK. It doesn't matter if you are 99.95 and 3250 in UCAT etc, you could still fumble! Hey, I passed the first year with some really hard and smart preparation, so you can too. Cheers.

 

[Ian Naga]

Opportunities are available...but I highly doubt if you can balance the Medicine workloads with the part-time job, highly impossible in my case. But each one is different. The fear of getting eliminated from the course runs from the day you step in for class 1. The reason being if you did not make the cut off of pass threshold in any of the learning domains (usually set around the high 50s like 58% with the exception year 3 around 65%), you are given one resit and if there is a miss again, you are onya flight back. It is so cruel and so tough.

Last month, we had 22 students failed in 5th year and one above my cohort in 2017, 20% of students were sent home after failing in year 1 resit. The pity is that many achieved a score above 50% which is generally a "pass" here (I think) but did not reach the cut off pass threshold which is another Einstein equation like our HSC scaling/moderation and set by the university. I can't comment on how the assessment and marking work here in Medicine (probably be the same pass threshold and not just 50% pass). This post is not to scare anyone but the reality is reflected. My senior got ousted after scoring 54.65 in the resit when the cut off was 55.50 ( a mere 0.85 less) in the second year. You are allowed to repeat a full year only in year 5, all other years you must resit within 6 weeks, so fate is decided very soon.

In my class in the first year, many failed in OSCE but one student having passed 7 out of 8 stations still did not reach the pass threshold of 76.65 ( the marking is weird) and had to resit which happened last week. Really scary...I managed a 90.00 having failed marginally in one station but secured almost full scores in other 7 stations. Lucky! So, it's not given that you will become a"Doctor" just by joining the course and working part-time on top adds to the misery in my opinion...but again everyone's cognitive level is different. In my year, no one worked part-time to give you an example. Hope that explains your question although I apologize that I digressed a bit. I thought I must paint a true picture for the sake of everyone in what to expect if they manage a medical admission in the UK. It doesn't matter if you are 99.95 and 3250 in UCAT etc, you could still fumble! Hey, I passed the first year with some really hard and smart preparation, so you can too. Cheers.

I am intrigued! So, if the resit doesn't work out, you not allowed to repeat the year (in year 1-4) ? That's harsh! Especially for internationals paying a lot of money to be asked to leave in Year 4 for example. Do they give an exit degree like B.Sc ? Are all Universities in the UK like that? My limited research previously seems to indicate they have different systems of learning (e.g PBL etc).

Also, I see this being posted on medical school websites:

"All suitably qualified UK graduates have found a place on the Foundation Year 1 programme, but this cannot be guaranteed, for instance if there were to be an increased number of competitive applications"

Are internationals included in "qualified UK graduates"? Do you know of instances of internationals missing on Foundation Year 1?

OP: If the UCAT was poor, 2 alternatives. I don't know if it is too late but do the BMAT. (Interestingly, if they ever bring that exam here, and rename British (B) to University (U) (like they did to UKCAT) , it will become UMAT !!!! The other alternative is to apply to Universities that do not ask for for ucat in the UK e.g Buckingham, Univ of Central Lancashire etc. My best wishes.

 

[Numerouno]

I am intrigued! So, if the resit doesn't work out, you not allowed to repeat the year (in year 1-4) ? That's harsh! Especially for internationals paying a lot of money to be asked to leave in Year 4 for example. Do they give an exit degree like B.Sc ? Are all Universities in the UK like that? My limited research previously seems to indicate they have different systems of learning (e.g PBL etc).

Also, I see this being posted on medical school websites:

"All suitably qualified UK graduates have found a place on the Foundation Year 1 programme, but this cannot be guaranteed, for instance if there were to be an increased number of competitive applications"

Are internationals included in "qualified UK graduates"? Do you know of instances of internationals missing on Foundation Year 1?

OP: If the UCAT was poor, 2 alternatives. I don't know if it is too late but do the BMAT. (Interestingly, if they ever bring that exam here, and rename British (B) to University (U) (like they did to UKCAT) , it will become UMAT !!!! The other alternative is to apply to Universities that do not ask for for ucat in the UK e.g Buckingham, Univ of Central Lancashire etc. My best wishes.

You assumptions are correct. Looks like you've read the details. Yes, it is harsh, leaving in year 4 and year 5 as well. You do not get a year to repeat from 1-4 just the resit in 6 weeks. Most universities follow this pattern one way or other but in a different flavour. I spoke to a few specialists here recently and they were dumbfounded and said here we explore how a student can be given chances to pass and not fail unless the student does not turn up at all or fell mentally ill seriously. Yes, they award B.Sc (Medical Studies) after 4 years and B.Sc (Medical Studies) Hons. after 5 th year Medicine failure.

A few students gained ( almost 80%-90%) internationals gained F1 & F2 program and secured full registration from GMC. They gained employment at the Registrar level just before completing F2 in the UK. I know them now very well. By doing so, are they not gaining one-year in front compared to the local graduates to get to Med Reg 1 position (educate me). Medicine 5 + Intern 1+RMO 1+ SRMO 1 = 8 years locally to get into Med Reg 1 ( although some SRMOs are called as Med Reg 1 ina few cases); But UK graduates, Medicine 5 + F1 +F2 = 7 years to gain in Meg Reg 1 positions but it will initially be unaccredited and after one year of supervised training in the hospital which is standard anyway, they gain full registration through MBA and will not lose that year to get into Basic Physician Training calculations. I am closely associated with one of the National Examiner (NEP) for FRACP Clinical exams who is a Senior Specialist and Director of Physician Training here. It has happened to many of my seniors. But soon after MBBS you can not gain Intern positions here at all unless you pass AMC 1 and may (remotely) get a chance to commence WBA ( Intern 6 months) which has also happened in a few cases. So it's not all doom and gloom "Never stop fighting until the fight is done".

 

[E_N]

Hi there,

As a student who has lived in Australia his whole life, I would really like the opportunity to study abroad in overseas Universities. The UK, New Zealand, Canada and USA (basically all first-world english-speaking countries) have all been places which I have considered, but it is difficult to decide considering the plethora of universities to choose from. Does anyone have suggestions as to which countries/universities are good (based on past experience/knowledge) and whether it is worth the cost to travel overseas and pay fees to complete tertiary education? And is it worth the great competition to get into these schools?

I am also aware of the fact that ATAR rankings will be need to converted. I have heard from friends that some countries have unfair conversions for ATAR rankings. Is this the case? In addition to basic prerequisites, most countries also require a medical admissions testing as well. Are these admissions tests difficult? And if so, how much preparation should be done in order to achieve a competitive mark for university acceptance?

On a side note, do Australian students still need to complete the UCAT if they already have an ATAR and are wanting to enter Australian/New Zealand universities? Just out of curiosity.

Thanks everyone!

(Btw couldn't really find a section for International Universities, so just posted the question in here ) — added by moderator: there is literally an existing thread a couple below this one titled ‘Studying Medicine Overseas’... I will add this post to that thread.

 

[dsnos]

Does anyone have suggestions as to which countries/universities are good (based on past experience/knowledge) and whether it is worth the cost to travel overseas and pay fees to complete tertiary education? And is it worth the great competition to get into these schools?

It depends where you want to work once you graduate. If you're planning on working in Australia, an Australian degree is ideal--I've heard people with overseas qualifications can have to redo their internship and specialisation once returning to Australia, even from what would seem to be countries with high education standards (someone on MSO was talking about a person with a German medical degree being asked to repeat their internship to practice in Aus). Apparently with a UK degree you might be okay to work here again, but I wouldn't risk it personally.

Of course, if you want to work and live in a specific country then try and study in that country. I believe if you study somewhere in the EU you can then work in other EU countries. According to this, you can work in Australia with a NZ degree and vice versa.

I wouldn't expect the competition to be much worse than here to be honest, but the overseas fees are so high that most people would financially be better off just studying in Australia. Studying at a public university in the UK for instance will cost the same as going to a private uni (Bond) here in Australia-- tuition fees for clinical years at Oxford are up to $70K AUD per year versus $11K AUD per year at Monash in Australia.

You could always do postgrad research or something overseas if you really want to study abroad--UK universities tend to have more scholarships available for postgraduate overseas students eg. those wanting to undertake a Master's, than undergraduate ones. Also many universities here have the option to study overseas for a semester or two, so consider looking into that.

On a side note, do Australian students still need to complete the UCAT if they already have an ATAR and are wanting to enter Australian/New Zealand universities? Just out of curiosity.

Depends on the uni (eg. JCU doesn't require UCAT). Most require the UCAT for all applicants including school-leavers, gap year, and non-standard applicants who have started another degree. UCAT is used for the majority of undergraduate medical programs in Australia, and many undergraduate and postgraduate ones in the UK eg. King's College London.

 

[Unluckydude]

Hi there,

As a student who has lived in Australia his whole life, I would really like the opportunity to study abroad in overseas Universities. The UK, New Zealand, Canada and USA (basically all first-world english-speaking countries) have all been places which I have considered, but it is difficult to decide considering the plethora of universities to choose from. Does anyone have suggestions as to which countries/universities are good (based on past experience/knowledge) and whether it is worth the cost to travel overseas and pay fees to complete tertiary education? And is it worth the great competition to get into these schools?

I am also aware of the fact that ATAR rankings will be need to converted. I have heard from friends that some countries have unfair conversions for ATAR rankings. Is this the case? In addition to basic prerequisites, most countries also require a medical admissions testing as well. Are these admissions tests difficult? And if so, how much preparation should be done in order to achieve a competitive mark for university acceptance?

On a side note, do Australian students still need to complete the UCAT if they already have an ATAR and are wanting to enter Australian/New Zealand universities? Just out of curiosity.

Thanks everyone!

(Btw couldn't really find a section for International Universities, so just posted the question in here ) — added by moderator: there is literally an existing thread a couple below this one titled ‘Studying Medicine Overseas’... I will add this post to that thread.

It really depends on why you want to study medicine overseas:

US/Canada - They only have graduate medicine which means you have to complete an undergraduate degree before you apply. Admissions are based on GPA + MCAT (kind of similar to GAMSAT, but still quite different) + Interview + work/life/shadowing experience + personal statement+ extracurricular activity. It usually costs 300,000 - 500,000 USD (4 years) to complete a med degree in the US. But keep in mind that a lot of US med schools don't accept international students.

UK - Most med schools require ATAR (at least 96, preferably 98.5+) + interview + personal statement + shadowing experience + UCAT (most med schools)/BMAT (a few schools). UK med degrees cost around 200,000 pounds and take 6 years to complete. However, it is generally believed that the working conditions and pay are worse in the UK when compared to Australia.

NZ - There are only two med schools in NZ. But I think both of them require you to do one year of health science before you apply. There is a sub-forum dedicated to NZ med schools. But I don't really understand why anyone would move from Australia to NZ to study medicine.

If you want to experience a different culture/environment, then the best country is the country that you like the most. If you want an easier way to get into medicine, then I'm afraid that those med schools might be harder to get in and significantly more expensive. Also it's very hard for foreign trained junior doctors to move back to Australia.

 

[garmonbozia]

If you want to experience a different culture/environment, then the best country is the country that you like the most.

Just to add on to that, most (if not all) medical schools allow you to independently organise international placements for some of your electives, which could be a viable alternative if the OP doesn't want to fork out half a million dollars and move overseas with almost zero chance of coming back to practise medicine in Australia.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Not sure if asking about "Physiotherapy" as a career option would be a relevant topic to discuss here.

Somebody who has done well in this line of career, please share views.

Physiotherapy in Clapham

Do you mean studying physiotherapy overseas?