Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

BillyB

Member
Similar example:
Dr. Hanlie Engelbrecht
BChD, DipOdont(MFOS), MDent(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
Oral Surgeon
MaxFac

The woman (above) has the exact same qualifications and surgical training as the OMS in the previous example (they are both single degree trained OMS from South Africa). However, because she was registered more recently (after they changed the name game rules in Australia) she is an "oral surgeon". However, as I said before they both have the same OMS surgical training from the same University in fact (they are both single degree OMS specialists regardless of title) and therefore have the same scope of practice.

As a matter of fact, Dr. Engelbrecht also completed a fellowship in Cleft and Craniofacial surgery after her OMS training. So she is competent and able to perform a very wide scope of surgical services.

I see what you are saying, yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work. The reason this is possible is because those people have done proper OMS training overseas, in effect, they are oral and maxillofacial surgeons and as you say it is only politics stopping them from being able to register as such. However, my comments are in specific reference to this new Sydney course. This course does not intend to train oral and maxillofacial surgeons, it intends to train oral surgeons. That is the difference versus the overseas courses. And that is why I believe their scope will be limited.


Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery)
The Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery) will develop your skills in the surgical management of the full range of oral diseases in hospital and non-hospital settings, complemented by a research project in the field of oral surgery and oral pathology under the supervision of an academic staff member.

note the intention of the course. To make you proficient in oral stuff. Not maxillofacial stuff.
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
The reason this is possible is because those people have done proper OMS training overseas.
They completed (as you said), a "proper OMS training" program (which as I pointed out) is a 3-4 year program that does not require a medical degree. This is the structure for the majority of OMS programs around the world.

Again, you are right ... (in that) it is your postgraduate training that determines your scope (and not whether you are single or dual degree OS/OMS).

yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work.

Exactly.

The DClinDent is a great option for those who wish to train locally in Australia/NZ as oral surgeons without completing medicine. (which is actually the norm in most of the world)
OMS ... even the dual RACDS track is still a specialty of Dentistry don't forget.
... and as we agreed: The core of the OMS work is the same whether or not you have a medical degree.

For those that wish to gain more experience in other areas a clinical Fellowship is the usual route.
Many surgeons (from all specialties : plastics, ENT, OMS, general surgery, paediatric surgery, etc) often complete complete fellowships after training to widen their scope in an area of interest (even the RACDS - dual qualified OMS grads often do this).

It is good that we now have both options for dental graduates in Australia. Some may wish to complete a single qualified track +/- Fellowship ; and some may wish to complete a dual qualified track +/- Fellowship. It all depends on what area of practice you enjoy most.

I do agree however that it definitely helps to have a medical degree if you want to practice the wider scope of OMS. And for some people they may prefer that route.
 
Last edited:

BillyB

Member
and as we agreed: The core of the OMS work is the same whether or not you have a medical degree.

The important point is that this USYD course isn't a OMS training program and it shouldn't be confused with one.

This course trains people in teeth/oral surgery (extractions, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery). They can't use this degree as a base to 'upgrade' their skills to a full OMS either - it doesn't work that way.

If one wants to practice the proper scope of an oral and maxillofacial, they still either have to do the dual degree pathway here in Australia, or do a formal OMS training program overseas and then use the 'back door' AHPRA trick. But dual-qualification is now considered the standard unless you were trained pre 1995, so IMO one really does need to a have a medical degree and FRACDS to 'keep up' with their peers and remain respected over the course of a 20-40 year career (unless they are happy just doing teeth/dental stuff in private practice type setting)
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
If one wants to practice the proper scope of an oral and maxillofacial, they still either have to do the dual degree pathway here in Australia, or do a formal OMS training program overseas and then use the 'back door' AHPRA trick.

You mean registration as an oral surgeon. Yes.

BillyB said:
yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work.
Yes. Correct.

They can't use this degree as a base to 'upgrade' their skills
Really? ...because Fellowships post specialty can be a way to increase clinical exposure and scope for any surgeon. The RACDS - OMS grads do this all the time as I have pointed out. So yes (any single degree OS/OMS can as well) ...just like anyone else.

IMO one really does need to a have a medical degree and FRACDS to 'keep up' with their peers and remain respected over the course of a 20-40 year career

I think that speaks volumes about many people's viewpoints on this issue. Thanks for that.

Honestly, I know many single qualified Oral surgeons/OMS who are very respected and very qualified surgeons!

Many of these are the very surgeons who are actually teaching the dual degree residents/registrars how to operate by the way.


The important point is that this USYD course isn't a OMS training program and it shouldn't be confused with one

Look I have never stated that the DClinDent (Oral Surgery) at Otago or Sydney trains for or should prepare people for full reconstructive head and neck surgery. It really doesn't matter what they are or aren't teaching at Otago or Sydney's new programs.. I'm not trying to argue this point.

My point is: 1) Many OMS (dual degree or not) are not that interested in doing expanded scope head and neck cancer, facelifts, or craniofacial surgery as the bulk of the work is dento-avleloar anyways.
Again.. don't forget that even if an RACDS - OMS who graduated with a medical degree wanted to do this type of expanded scope work. They too require another 1-2 year fellowship in these areas after RACDS-OMS training in order to do it.

Single or dual degree... The Core procedures are the same : wisdom teeth, implants, prosthetic surgery, orthodontic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

Additionally, 2) there is nothing wrong with a graduate of a DClinDent (or any surgical program for that matter) expanding their skill set after graduation in an area of interest. Yes, there are post-specialty fellowships available for single as well as dual degree graduates.

Again, It is your postgraduate training that determines your scope.

I still agree that if someone knows from the outset that they want to do cancer surgery, craniofacial, or facial cosmetic then they probably should be doing a medical degree and a wide scope program as it will make things easier. Again, it depends on what your goals are. I agree with you here.

The important point here is that: Selection of a training path is a personal decision. There are pros/cons to both training paths. But these are paths that should compliment/support each other, not divide the specialty of OMS.
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
I am an Australian dental graduate who is now completing OMS in the states. If I were to move back to Australia to practice I would be registered as an oral surgeon (which I have no problem with btw). I am at a great training program that is training us in the full scope of OMS. Our program director is in fact a single degree OMS who has also completed a fellowship in Head/Neck microvascular surgery.

Where I am training they offer both single and dual degree training options and the residents in both programs train along side each other for the same procedures. No one has any issue or less respect for the people in the other program. We are all "oral and maxillofacial surgeons" here regardless if you have a medical degree or not as OMS is a dental speciality and the medical degree is optional and peripheral to our training. Looking back at the bubble that is Australia from the outside I can see that the politics of our speciality there are often petty and divisive and I'm hoping things will change in the future.
 
Last edited:

BillyB

Member
My point is: 1) Many OMS (dual degree or not) are not interested in doing expanded scope head and neck cancer or cleft/craniofacial surgery as the bulk of the work is dento-avleloar anyways.
Again.. don't forget that even if an RACDS - OMS who graduated with a medical degree wanted to do this type of expanded scope work. They too usually require another 1-2 year fellowship in these areas after RACDS-OMS training in order to do it.
The Core procedures are the same : wisdom teeth, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery, orthodontic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

Additionally, 2) there is nothing wrong with a graduate of a DClinDent (or any surgical program) expanding their skill set after graduation in an area of interest.

With regard to Point 1: I'll say again: this USYD course will not enable graduates to do facial trauma - it is simply not part of the course goals. "Oral Surgery" in Australia has a very specific definition and this course has been designed and credentialed against that specific definition. "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery" is considered a separate specialty and has its own definition which is much broader.

One way to understand this course is to compare it to all the other dental specialties (eg endodontics, orthodontics, periodontics etc). They get all their patients from dentist referrals and they all sit in a dental office and confine their practice to a specific area of dentistry confined to the oral cavity more or less. If that's what someone wants then they should go for it, there is great potential for success if one has the passion for that area.


With regard to point 2: Advanced training posts are rare and in Australia, you need a strong background of surgical experience (eg ENT, plastics) to get into one. Being extremely well trained and proficient in intra-oral surgery but having little other experience is unlikely to cut it. I'm just being realistic here.

Because of your OMS training overseas, you may very well get a hospital consulting position as an OMS in Australia and be able to use that to get extra credentialing in H&N etc, and I hope you do, however, this USYD course is not the same at all.
 

BillyB

Member
Just to summarise the situation here in Australia:

There are two distinct specialties
1. Oral Surgery
-Requires a dental degree and a postgraduate degree to specialise
-Courses available: DClinDent (USYD) and one in NZ
-Graduates are not trained in surgery of the broader maxillofacial area (eg no facial trauma)
- Graduates will likely work in private dental specialist practices or in public dental hospitals hired as dental specialists

2. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery
-you need both medical and dental degrees and be registered with RACDS
-the scope includes everything in (1) + maxillofacial work
-you can expand your scope in the head and neck region further by doing extra formal training on top

Option 3. Go overseas and complete complete a training program in Oral & Maxillofacial surgery and come back to Australia
- you can only register as an Oral surgeon and you can't legally call yourself an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, despite the fact that you are fully trained as one overseas
-technically you may be able to practice the full scope of OMS, however, my understanding is that OMS positions in public hospitals generally require registration as an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, but happy to be corrected by anyone with experience. In any case, the opportunities may be less, as an example, this position requires RACDS:
https://nswhealth.erecruit.com.au/ViewPosition.aspx?id=93231
i.e you have the skills, but may be difficult to get the job/position to fully utilise them.
 
Last edited:

Smith88

Member
Because of your OMS training overseas, you may very well get a hospital consulting position as an OMS in Australia and be able to use that to get extra credentialing in H&N etc, and I hope you do.

Thanks.

Yes, that is what I have been told as well. Regardless of which specialty classification I am registered as (oral surgeon/OMS), if I can demonstrate that I have completed formal training in full scope OMS procedures (overseas) then I will be able to obtain privileges to perform these if/when I return. So it really doesn't matter.

As an "oral surgeon" in Australia I would be able to perform all of the procedures I have been trained in during my OMS program overseas.
 
Last edited:
Where I am training they offer both single and dual degree options and the residents in both programs train along side each other for the same procedures. No one has any issue or less respect for the people in the other program. We are all oral and maxillofacial surgeons. Looking back at the bubble that is Australia from the outside I can see that the politics of our speciality there are often petty and I'm hoping things will change in the future.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to know more about training as an OMFS in the states! Would you inbox me?
 

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

Smith88

Member
I'll just post my response here so others can benefit.

Are there many 4 year omfs residency programs in the US that take internationals?

Not a lot. no. However, there are some. In the thread (if you scroll up) I listed a handful of single degree OMS programs that currently consider internationals. Every year or two some North American programs decide to re-consider taking internationals (so you never know). Honestly, you will just need to apply to all of the 4-year programs in US/Canada .... and you will get mostly rejections.. but just like me. Eventually you might get an acceptance.

If you are interested in applying you will need to complete the US National dental board exam. (if you want to apply to Canadian programs you will need to sit the Canadian Dental Board exam). Additionally, I would recommend doing externships (1-2 weeks observing/hands on) at each program you are interested in applying to.

Here is a list of all of the US OMS programs
Search for Dental Programs


You may also want to consider applying to OMS Internship programs (particularly if you don't think you'll get accepted to a full OMS program on your first attempt). An internship is just a 1-year job in the OMS department. An intern functions the same as a first year OMS trainee (all the same experience) but it is not an accredited training position (meaning you don't get to progress to year 2 of the training program). However, if you are truely interested. I would apply to all of the 1-year OMS internships in North America too because most people who complete one of these (and do well that year and get a letter of recommendation at the end of the job) will get accepted into an accredited OMS training program the following year.

Here are just a couple of examples:

If a dental graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited OMS program in Canada or the US (what I am doing); then this will allow you to get a license to practice as an OMS in North America afterwards. You can also return to Aus/NZ and register (as an "oral surgeon") but still practice the full range of OMS procedures learned during your training.

Additionally, the head of our program said if a DClinDent (oral surgery) graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited clinical OMS fellowship the States/Canada (1-2 years) afterwards and obtained a license to practice; then they too would be registered as an OMS here in North America.
 
Last edited:
I'll just post my response here so others can benefit.



Not a lot. no. However, there are some. In the thread (if you scroll up) I listed a handful of single degree OMS programs that currently consider internationals. Every year or two some North American programs decide to re-consider taking internationals (so you never know). Honestly, you will just need to apply to all of the 4-year programs in US/Canada .... and you will get mostly rejections.. but just like me. Eventually you might get an acceptance.

If you are interested in applying you will need to complete the US National dental board exam. (if you want to apply to Canadian programs you will need to sit the Canadian Dental Board exam). Additionally, I would recommend doing externships (1-2 weeks observing/hands on) at each program you are interested in applying to.

Here is a list of all of the US OMS programs
Search for Dental Programs


You may also want to consider applying to OMS Internship programs (particularly if you don't think you'll get accepted to a full OMS program on your first attempt). An internship is just a 1-year job in the OMS department. An intern functions the same as a first year OMS trainee (all the same experience) but it is not an accredited training position (meaning you don't get to progress to year 2 of the training program). However, if you are truely interested. I would apply to all of the 1-year OMS internships in North America too because most people who complete one of these (and do well that year and get a letter of recommendation at the end of the job) will get accepted into an accredited OMS training program the following year.

Here are just a couple of examples:

If a dental graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited OMS program in Canada or the US (what I am doing); then this will allow you to get a license to practice as an OMS in North America afterwards. You can also return to Aus/NZ and register (as an "oral surgeon") but still practice the full range of OMS procedures learned during your training.

Additionally, the head of our program said if a DClinDent (oral surgery) graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited clinical OMS fellowship the States/Canada (1-2 years) afterwards and obtained a license to practice; then they too would be registered as an OMS here in North America.

I appreciate the responses, as there is some very useful information that you have provided. I am also considering applying to American OMFS programs and wanted to know more about your journey and things you had completed to make your application more attractive.
 

Smith88

Member
I am also considering applying to American OMFS programs and wanted to know more about your journey and things you had completed to make your application more attractive.

I think the hard part is finding a US or Canadian OMS program that is currently considering taking internationals. Very few programs take internationals and even then.. they change their rules all the time. (might be even harder at the moment with COVID)

How do you make your application more attractive? Well its much the same for all specialty programs in that most like to see quality research experience (especially publications).

Also, OMS has long hours can be pretty gruelling. Most program directors like to see that you have actually spent time working in an OMS department and been part of a surgical team (so you know what you are getting involved with before they commit to taking you). How do you do this? well as stated before (scroll up) you can do an intern year (unaccredited year as an OMS reg in a US program : this is the best thing you can do. As long as you get a good reference from the program you intern with; almost all who do an intern year in a US program and get good references will get into a full accredited OMS program the following year!). The next best thing is to do an externship (1-3 month observing in a US program). Also you could try doing a GPR (general practice residency : similar to being a dental officer in a hospital).
 

Smith88

Member
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.
 
Last edited:

Sentinel

Member
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.


Hi Smith88
I am currently starting my dent degree (with med background)
I would like to get some advice. Would you be able to check your DM
 
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.
I appreciate your time and information provided, really helpful!
 
I'll just post my response here so others can benefit.



Not a lot. no. However, there are some. In the thread (if you scroll up) I listed a handful of single degree OMS programs that currently consider internationals. Every year or two some North American programs decide to re-consider taking internationals (so you never know). Honestly, you will just need to apply to all of the 4-year programs in US/Canada .... and you will get mostly rejections.. but just like me. Eventually you might get an acceptance.

If you are interested in applying you will need to complete the US National dental board exam. (if you want to apply to Canadian programs you will need to sit the Canadian Dental Board exam). Additionally, I would recommend doing externships (1-2 weeks observing/hands on) at each program you are interested in applying to.

Here is a list of all of the US OMS programs
Search for Dental Programs


You may also want to consider applying to OMS Internship programs (particularly if you don't think you'll get accepted to a full OMS program on your first attempt). An internship is just a 1-year job in the OMS department. An intern functions the same as a first year OMS trainee (all the same experience) but it is not an accredited training position (meaning you don't get to progress to year 2 of the training program). However, if you are truely interested. I would apply to all of the 1-year OMS internships in North America too because most people who complete one of these (and do well that year and get a letter of recommendation at the end of the job) will get accepted into an accredited OMS training program the following year.

Here are just a couple of examples:

If a dental graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited OMS program in Canada or the US (what I am doing); then this will allow you to get a license to practice as an OMS in North America afterwards. You can also return to Aus/NZ and register (as an "oral surgeon") but still practice the full range of OMS procedures learned during your training.

Additionally, the head of our program said if a DClinDent (oral surgery) graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited clinical OMS fellowship the States/Canada (1-2 years) afterwards and obtained a license to practice; then they too would be registered as an OMS here in North America.

Wow this discussion is gold. Thanks a lot Smith88 and everyone else for sharing.
I am a local qualified dentist applying to medical schools in Australia for 2021 start in hopes of doing OMFS.
But now going overseas seems really appealing given how much shorter the training would be and also the certainty that once accepted onto a program I would actually become an OMFS, unlike having to take a gamble on doing both med/dent here without any certainty of training afterwards.
Thanks Smith88 for sharing examples of 4-year training positions internationally. Do you happen to have any anecdotal experience of international students being accepted onto the 6-year OMFS+MD training programs ? And are there any examples of overseas trained OMFS's in Australia right now that did the 6 year OMFS+MD program and managed to register as an OMFS in Australia instead of an OS afterwards?
 

Smith88

Member
But now going overseas seems really appealing given how much shorter the training would be and also the certainty that once accepted onto a program I would actually become an OMFS, unlike having to take a gamble on doing both med/dent here without any certainty of training afterwards.

Exactly, this is a huge benefit.

Do you happen to have any anecdotal experience of international students being accepted onto the 6-year OMFS+MD training programs ? And are there any examples of overseas trained OMFS's in Australia right now that did the 6 year OMFS+MD program and managed to register as an OMFS in Australia instead of an OS afterwards?

Not that I'm aware of. Most all of the internationals who got into an American OMS program got into the 4-year certificate programs not the 6 year MD combined ones. However, this is mainly due to the US med schools admission rules around internationals ... and not due to the OMS training programs that they are affiliated with.

Another path to the same thing (if you really want both degrees) is you could either complete both dental and med degrees in Australia and then 4 year OMS residency in USA/Canada.

Or alternatively you could complete 4 year OMS residency in USA and then return to Australia and then later complete a med degree after. That is what this guy did: Prof Darryl Tong : he did dentistry (and a PhD) in New Zealand then did a 4 year OMS program in the states (Seattle Washington), then he returned to New Zealand and completed a med degree afterwards. He does not have FRACDS (OMS) as I don't think he ever sat the FRACDS OMS exam. So he doesn't have that, but it doesn't seem to affect what he does as an OMS in New Zealand.

However, it depends on exactly what you wish to accomplish. Where do you wish to ultimately practice? What aspects of OMS do you wish to practice the most?

Here are a few Au/NZ based OMS who do not have med degrees and simply did dentistry in Au/NZ and then OMS training in USA only.
  1. Anthony Oliver BDS Syd and OMS in Houston Texas
  2. Christopher McGrath BDS Melb and OMS Seattle Washington
  3. Howard Sandler BDS South Africa and OMS Tufts Boston
  4. Neil Luyk : BDS NZ and OMS at OHIO USA
  5. Manish Patel BDS NZ and OMS in Miami USA
I'm sure there are many more out there, but these are a few examples I quickly found online.

There are also a bunch of South African trained OMS working in Australia and NZ too (I think all of which also do not have a med degree and also do not have FRACDS (OMS)).

Again, also the OMS training programs in Singapore and HK are 3-year Masters programs (MDS OMS) which you may also wish to take a look at: Singapore MDS OMS (3 year program). You could also of course do a med degree in Aus/NZ either before or after this training program too if you wished. Or you could do the DClinDent in Oral Surgery at Otago or Syd and then do a med degree after if you cared to. Again, it all depends on what you want to get out of your training and what kind of practice you wish to have.

Again, lots of pathways and options for those who are interested in considering alternatives.
 
Last edited:

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

Smith88

Member
Another list of US programs (as of 2019):
https://www.aaoms.org/docs/education_research/edu_training/2019_aaomresidency_omsprogram.pdf

Another list and info:
Selecting a Program | AAOMS

The shortest OMS program in the states that combine with a medical degree is Case Western
OMFS Curriculum | School of Dental Medicine | Case Western Reserve University
This program is 5 years total and gives you a MD (medical degree) and OMS specialty training combined. (1.5 years of med, and 3.5 yeas of OMS/gen surg). Although I don't think this program accepts internationals (again I think its the rules with the med school admissions).

Otago (in NZ) used to also have a 5 year combined Med degree + OMS training program, but I think that program may no longer be running. Instead they are offering a 4-year (1+3) specialty program (DClinDent Oral Surgey) : DClinDent in Oral Surgery, Faculty of Dentistry, University of Otago, New Zealand
 
Last edited:
Exactly, this is a huge benefit.



Not that I'm aware of. Most all of the internationals who got into an American OMS program got into the 4-year certificate programs not the 6 year MD combined ones. However, this is mainly due to the US med schools admission rules around internationals ... and not due to the OMS training programs that they are affiliated with.

Another path to the same thing (if you really want both degrees) is you could either complete both dental and med degrees in Australia and then 4 year OMS residency in USA/Canada.

Or alternatively you could complete 4 year OMS residency in USA and then return to Australia and then later complete a med degree after. That is what this guy did: Prof Darryl Tong : he did dentistry (and a PhD) in New Zealand then did a 4 year OMS program in the states (Seattle Washington), then he returned to New Zealand and completed a med degree afterwards. He does not have FRACDS (OMS) as I don't think he ever sat the FRACDS OMS exam. So he doesn't have that, but it doesn't seem to affect what he does as an OMS in New Zealand.

However, it depends on exactly what you wish to accomplish. Where do you wish to ultimately practice? What aspects of OMS do you wish to practice the most?

Here are a few Au/NZ based OMS who do not have med degrees and simply did dentistry in Au/NZ and then OMS training in USA only.
  1. Anthony Oliver BDS Syd and OMS in Houston Texas
  2. Christopher McGrath BDS Melb and OMS Seattle Washington
  3. Howard Sandler BDS South Africa and OMS Tufts Boston
  4. Neil Luyk : BDS NZ and OMS at OHIO USA
  5. Manish Patel BDS NZ and OMS in Miami USA
I'm sure there are many more out there, but these are a few examples I quickly found online.

There are also a bunch of South African trained OMS working in Australia and NZ too (I think all of which also do not have a med degree and also do not have FRACDS (OMS)).

Again, also the OMS training programs in Singapore and HK are also 3 year Masters programs (MDS OMS) which you may also wish to take a look at: Singapore MDS OMS (3 year program). You could also of course do a med degree in Aus/NZ either before or after this training program too if you wished. Or you could do the DClinDent in Oral Surgery at Otago or Syd and then do a med degree after if you cared to. Again, it all depends on what you want to get out of your training and what kind of practice you wish to have.

Again, lots of pathways and options for those who are interested in considering alternatives.

Wow thanks a lot for all the information!

Looking at all those names, it seems kind of silly how those exact same people wouldn't be able to register as an OMFS, but "just" an OS if they did the same training today. And how if they had a medical degree without changing anything in their training, then they are able to register as an OMFS as if the medical degree is just a box to tick and nothing more (especially if doing med AFTERWARDS can satisfy this...)

It seems like the 4-year OMS programs/certificates in South Africa / USA are the popular options.
Is there a risk though that such training programs aren't accepted for mutual recognition afterwards? Especially if going for options like the MDS courses in HK and SG which are only 3 years and not the "norm" like the 4 year certificate programs

This was an interesting paper I came across while doing some preliminary research
Training Pathways in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Across the Globe—A Mini Review
It sounds like there are a few hurdles to jump through after coming back from overseas training. Do you have any insight into this process Smith88?

Australia
Under Australian government regulations, overseas trained oral and maxillofacial surgeons (OTOMS) must undergo a specialist assessment process by Royal Australasian College of Dental Surgeons (RACDS) [38].

This assessment normally takes up to 3 months (from date of activation) to complete and involves a document-based assessment and may include a face-to-face semi-structured panel interview [38].

The eligibility criteria for Specialist Assessment are that the candidate must possess a Dental degree and a Medical degree, which must be primary source verified, General registration as a dental practitioner in Australian or New Zealand and a Specialist qualification in the field of OMFS [38].

The Overseas Trained Specialist Working Group (OTSWG) assesses the application and interview report. Applicants who are deemed partially or substantially comparable to an Australian or New Zealand trained Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon will be required to complete a minimum of 12 months of supervised clinical practice. An OTOMS must complete all requirements within 4 years of commencement, failing which his assessment validity period will expire and their assessment will no longer be valid [38].

Once all specialist recognition requirements have been completed within the required timeframe, the OTSWG will consider a recommendation that the applicant be granted Fellowship in the Specialty of OMFS (FRACDS(OMS)). This recommendation will go to the College Council for ratification [38].
 

Smith88

Member
Looking at all those names, it seems kind of silly how those exact same people wouldn't be able to register as an OMFS, but "just" an OS if they did the same training today.

Well, that is just the way it is in Australia. I also am an OMS in the states, but if I come to Australia will be registered as an OS there now. Its just politics, nothing more.

In Australia they have just decided to have 2 categories of registration and have made them technically 2 seperate specialties. So I wouldn't say "just" an OS. Because these are technically/legally 2 seperate and distinct dental specialties in Australia (one does not control the other); that would be like saying one surgeon is "just" an ENT and not a Plastic surgeon, or just an endodontist and not a paediatric dentist. Does that make sense? I know its confusing in Aus/NZ.

As long as you are a registered specialist OS or OMS (doesn't matter which); AND as long as you can demonstrate competence in the procedures you wish to perform (i.e. you can show you have been formally trained to do them and you have a logbook with sufficient cases) then you can get credentialed to do the same thing (practice the same scope).


It seems like the 4-year OMS programs/certificates in South Africa / USA are the popular options.
Is there a risk though that such training programs aren't accepted for mutual recognition afterwards? Especially if going for options like the MDS courses in HK and SG which are only 3 years and not the "norm" like the 4 year certificate programs

I don't know if I would say they are more popular per se. There are probably more South African specialists here because like us they come from a traditionally British Commonwealth education system (and because many of them wanted to leave their Country due to rampant violent crime which made it unsafe for them to stay there). This also equates to their programs getting lots of trauma experience.

The US programs have always been well rounded and overall good programs, and American training (like American currency) fairly accepted world wide.

Singapore is a very safe place (so less trauma experience), but you would probably get great training in benign path, orthognathics, and of course wisdom teeth and implants/grafting, and probably some TMJ.

It won't matter if you complete your training in the USA, South Africa, or Singapore. If you return to Australia after any of these programs (without med degree) you will be considered for the OS category not OMS (unless you have fulfilled a couple extra tick-boxes). But again, it depends on exactly what your goals are. As I've already pointed out, for most things this does not make a difference OS / OMS in Australia or NZ!

To be registrable (for OS) you need an absolute minimum of 3 years full time training and you have to have a logbook of your cases, and you need to have research experience usually (at minimum) in the form of a masters level degree.

OMS of course have their own list of minimum requirements which are longer. Including but not limited to: registered med degree, (and internship year), and a general surgery year, etc. But when it comes the actual OMS training: they also want a min 3-4 years.


In Australia and NZ:
  1. The local RACDS OMS program is 4 years
  2. The local OS programs are also 4 years (1 Dip + 3 DClinDent)

This was an interesting paper I came across while doing some preliminary research
Training Pathways in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Across the Globe—A Mini Review
It sounds like there are a few hurdles to jump through after coming back from overseas training. Do you have any insight into this process Smith88?

In order to apply for registration as a specialist (OS or OMS) in Australia (as an overseas trained specialist). You have to apply to the Dental Board of Australia / ADC for recognition of your overseas training as equivalent to Australian training.

One difference is that for OS (just like all other dental specialities) it is the Dental Board that will complete this assessment themselves. For OMS, the Dental Board instead direct you to apply to the OMS Board at the RACDS and they are the ones who complete that assessment.

So again, for OMS they have their own seperate entity that controls the local training and regulation. Seperate from all other dental specialties.

if they had a medical degree without changing anything in their training, then they are able to register as an OMFS as if the medical degree is just a box to tick and nothing more (especially if doing med AFTERWARDS can satisfy this...)

To add to your confusion, I have also seen in Australia a couple of dual qualified (BDS and MBBS) people who are registered OS (not OMS) and perform wide scope clinical practice. One guy did dent, OS training, then med, then a couple extra years of training in plastics/head and neck (but was a registered OS - not OMS or any other specialty).

One benefit to completing an MDS in OMS from Singapore, USA, Canada, South Africa (places where a med degree is not required to enter into the training program) would be the fastest path to being registered as a specialist (OMS overseas / OS if returning to Aus/NZ).

If you wanted to be registered as an OMS for some reason in Aus you would as I pointed out above; have to apply to the RACDS directly and tick their boxes to join the club: which include going back and completing a med degree, internship year (required for registration of your med degree), and then probably another year of supervised practice as a senior OMS reg and then sitting the FRACDS (OMS) exam.

Alternatively, there is nothing wrong with 1. completing overseas OMS training and then registering as a specialist OS in Australia and then 2. completing a medical degree (if you wanted to be dual qualified) remaining a registered OS with a wide scope of practice.

Additionally, don't forget that it would be easier to complete your degrees in the country you wish to ultimately practice in. You asked about the 6 year American OMS + MD programs; but remember if you wanted to come back to Australia and register you also now have the hurdle of sitting the AMC (international medical graduate exam!) and then will probably have to redo your internship year to get medical registration.
 
Last edited:

Registered  members with 100+ posts do not see Ads

Top