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Would going to Bond Uni be detrimental in attaining specialisation

Rebskis

Member
Hi, I am a high school leaver from NSW and achieved an ATAR of 99.90 and a UMAT percentile of 61 (58,41,57). Due to my low UMAT score I did not receive any interviews from any university, including James Cook. Therefore, my only option for starting medicine this year would be to try to get into Bond and I would be able to afford it. My only concern is that would there be prejudices against doctors who "paid" their way into a medicine degree and would it hurt my chances of specialising in the future.
If I don't get into Bond, I am taking a gap and re-sitting the UMAT to try and get in next year. I am not very keen on sitting the GAMSAT.
 

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L

Logic

Guest
Hi, I am a high school leaver from NSW and achieved an ATAR of 99.90 and a UMAT percentile of 61 (58,41,57). Due to my low UMAT score I did not receive any interviews from any university, including James Cook. Therefore, my only option for starting medicine this year would be to try to get into Bond and I would be able to afford it. My only concern is that would there be prejudices against doctors who "paid" their way into a medicine degree and would it hurt my chances of specialising in the future.
If I don't get into Bond, I am taking a gap and re-sitting the UMAT to try and get in next year. I am not very keen on sitting the GAMSAT.
I noticed you got 99.90, did you not apply to griffith medicine? The cut off was around 99.70 this year.
 

karenh

Regular Member
Did you apply for UMelb Chancellor's Program? If not, I'm not sure if you can reapply next yr and what the conditions are e.g. no tertiary studies this year.

That said, TDK's suggestion of Griffith is probably wiser since UMelb has the MMI interview in 3rd year I believe.
 

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Rebskis

Member
I noticed you got 99.90, did you not apply to griffith medicine? The cut off was around 99.70 this year.
Did you apply for UMelb Chancellor's Program? If not, I'm not sure if you can reapply next yr and what the conditions are e.g. no tertiary studies this year.

That said, TDK's suggestion of Griffith is probably wiser since UMelb has the MMI interview in 3rd year I believe.
I knew about both of these options but I didn’t want to risk the interview/getting a high gpa without going for UMAT again but I will keep it in mind if I need to apply next year.
 

hpfanfiction

Paediatric Healer at St. Mungo's Hospital
Emeritus Staff
I knew about both of these options but I didn’t want to risk the interview/getting a high gpa without going for UMAT again but I will keep it in mind if I need to apply next year.
Congrats on your 99.90
For someone of your academic ability, the GPA threshold is very achievable

But to answer your OP- No
 

cnbas

Member
Hi, I am a high school leaver from NSW and achieved an ATAR of 99.90 and a UMAT percentile of 61 (58,41,57). Due to my low UMAT score I did not receive any interviews from any university, including James Cook. Therefore, my only option for starting medicine this year would be to try to get into Bond and I would be able to afford it. My only concern is that would there be prejudices against doctors who "paid" their way into a medical degree and would it hurt my chances of specialising in the future.
If I don't get into Bond, I am taking a gap and re-sitting the UMAT to try and get in next year. I am not very keen on sitting the GAMSAT.
That's a WOW ATAR score. Congratulations. I am also from NSW. I missed in a similar fashion by a whisker UMAT (57, 56,65) but ATAR is less though 99.20. I was predicted 99.90 but bombed in the final exams in Physics and that pulled the prediction down. I made the interview at UNSW and got Uni Melb (7 years guaranteed entry but need to maintain GPA and finish MMI). Shockingly I did not get an interview for JCU. Missed the Section 1 cutoff for JMP Newcastle by 2 marks etc...I did not hear anything from UTAS but got the Med research 8-year option (too long). Did you get a reply from UTAS as they may for very high ATAR for interstate although the cut off is only 95+? Did you get the psychometric testing invite from Bond? Dumb question...you definitely would have. Good luck to you.

My last point of call is Bond and planning to resit UMAT and see if I get close to 190 this time???. Failing all, I am off to the UK in September 2018, as I got three offers Newcastle, Plymouth, and Exeter, all with 5 years MBBS program. I did very well in the UKCAT (similar to UMAT) exam LOL. Complete 2 years Foundation Year program (Internship) after MBBS in the UK and get a job under competitive pathway in the AMC as a Registrar in Australia...not too bad considering it takes the same amount of time for a local student who does the 5 year degree in Austrlaia and also provides full registration with GMC, worldwide recognition for employment! It does better than who got in UNSW, USyd, UQ, and Flinders all have 6 to 8 years to complete MBBS/MD. But need to be away from home. So all is not lost. Then commence the Specialisation Basic trainee program. That's the 8-year plan from me. I though this would give you some motivation. Good luck.
 

Tomato

Regular Member
That's a WOW ATAR score. Congratulations. I am also from NSW. I missed in a similar fashion by a whisker UMAT (57, 56,65) but ATAR is less though 99.20. I was predicted 99.90 but bombed in the final exams in Physics and that pulled the prediction down. I made the interview at UNSW and got Uni Melb (7 years guaranteed entry but need to maintain GPA and finish MMI). Shockingly I did not get an interview for JCU. Missed the Section 1 cutoff for JMP Newcastle by 2 marks etc...I did not hear anything from UTAS but got the Med research 8-year option (too long). Did you get a reply from UTAS as they may for very high ATAR for interstate although the cut off is only 95+? Did you get the psychometric testing invite from Bond? Dumb question...you definitely would have. Good luck to you.

My last point of call is Bond and planning to resit UMAT and see if I get close to 190 this time???. Failing all, I am off to the UK in September 2018, as I got three offers Newcastle, Plymouth, and Exeter, all with 5 years MBBS program. I did very well in the UKCAT (similar to UMAT) exam LOL. Complete 2 years Foundation Year program (Internship) after MBBS in the UK and get a job under competitive pathway in the AMC as a Registrar in Australia...not too bad considering it takes the same amount of time for a local student who does the 5 year degree in Austrlaia and also provides full registration with GMC, worldwide recognition for employment! It does better than who got in UNSW, USyd, UQ, and Flinders all have 6 to 8 years to complete MBBS/MD. But need to be away from home. So all is not lost. Then commence the Specialisation Basic trainee program. That's the 8-year plan from me. I though this would give you some motivation. Good luck.

How much does it cost to study medicine in UK? I guess it may be similar to Bond's fees as an international student. The living costs can be higher as well. I think it's all about of the affordability. Good luck for all these possibilities.
 

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LMG!

Moderator
Staff Member of the Year 2019
That's a WOW ATAR score. Congratulations. I am also from NSW. I missed in a similar fashion by a whisker UMAT (57, 56,65) but ATAR is less though 99.20. I was predicted 99.90 but bombed in the final exams in Physics and that pulled the prediction down. I made the interview at UNSW and got Uni Melb (7 years guaranteed entry but need to maintain GPA and finish MMI). Shockingly I did not get an interview for JCU. Missed the Section 1 cutoff for JMP Newcastle by 2 marks etc...I did not hear anything from UTAS but got the Med research 8-year option (too long). Did you get a reply from UTAS as they may for very high ATAR for interstate although the cut off is only 95+? Did you get the psychometric testing invite from Bond? Dumb question...you definitely would have. Good luck to you.

My last point of call is Bond and planning to resit UMAT and see if I get close to 190 this time???. Failing all, I am off to the UK in September 2018, as I got three offers Newcastle, Plymouth, and Exeter, all with 5 years MBBS program. I did very well in the UKCAT (similar to UMAT) exam LOL. Complete 2 years Foundation Year program (Internship) after MBBS in the UK and get a job under competitive pathway in the AMC as a Registrar in Australia...not too bad considering it takes the same amount of time for a local student who does the 5 year degree in Austrlaia and also provides full registration with GMC, worldwide recognition for employment! It does better than who got in UNSW, USyd, UQ, and Flinders all have 6 to 8 years to complete MBBS/MD. But need to be away from home. So all is not lost. Then commence the Specialisation Basic trainee program. That's the 8-year plan from me. I though this would give you some motivation. Good luck.
Mana and pi, I’d be interested in your takes (if you have time) on the OP’s 8 Year Plan. Is it as seamless as it sounds?

And to cnbas with a S1 score of 57, you only missed JMP by a single point this year as non-rural invites went to those with S1 58+ (and 50+ in all section - to keep in mind if you’re re-sitting). Your S2 score would have ruled you out of UTAS (you really need 60+ in that as a non-rural), though your overall UMAT score wouldn’t have come close either in the end. As UTAS take only a minuscule number of non-rural school leavers (which I’m assuming you are), people tend to need super high UMATs and ATARs. Missing out on a JCU interview isn’t “shocking” given they place huge emphasis on the written application and many people with 99.95 also missed receiving interviews on the basis of this (three in this situation at least were reported to MSO late last year when invites went out).
 

cnbas

Member
Hi LMG, Thanks for your valuable information. I am kicking myself with that one mark, I thought 2 was hurting when I knew 59 was cut off. Now, knowing 58 would have got me in with a chance is infuriating. But hey, as I sit the Bong Psycho tomorrow I need the much needed emotional stability :)
I take solace in knowing that 99.95s did not get JCU interview and I vaguely knew that it would be the case. My application was reviewed by a Nursing Manager where I did volunteering and a Specialist doctor where I did a research assistant role in data collection in an Aged care facility. But that's why I said "shocking" probably that was either not enough or I seriously doubt whether they even read my application.

I think it is humanly impossible to objectively read 4 answers from 3000 applicants in that time span unless we employ Robots with vision and built-in Knowledgebase with Artificial Intelligence (Expert Systems) technology. I sound unbalanced that's not good for tomorrow...cool down cnbas :)

My 8-year plan is achievable if anyone has the willingness to get out of the country to do an MBBS degree which is as recognised if not more from the UK. I knew some of them personally who work as Registrar in Australia after FY1 and FY2 from the UK. Being an Australian Citizen, it may be easier to get employed into Registrar level as we bypass the JMO unit. That's where the issue is to get Internship in Australia faced by many OMGs- writing AMC Paper 1 and Paper 2 to get accreditation. That is the Standard Pathway. What I refer is the Competitive Pathway where the GMC accredited FY1 and FY2 completion should be accredited directly in Australia by the Medical Board. So, if one wants to become a doctor and practice medicine here there's always the way without hurting too much on the years and on the wallet. (Approx living cost is 8000 to 9000 pounds and Tuition is around 150000 pounds and upwards approx. $350000 all inclusive) Scotland Glasgow, Edinburgh will be on the higher scale 39000 pounds per year and very hard to get in as they need a high UKCAT score and very good psychometric rating through SJT component. I answered the other friend's query in this reply. Sorry guys for the long post. If it helps people in any way I am happy to share information that I know for sure. Good Luck.

How much does it cost to study medicine in UK? I guess it may be similar to Bond's fees as an international student. The living costs can be higher as well. I think it's all about of the affordability. Good luck for all these possibilities.
Hi Tomato

I answered your query through a reply to LMG. Cheers.
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
What I refer is the Competitive Pathway where the GMC accredited FY1 and FY2 completion should be accredited directly in Australia by the Medical Board.
I think you have not got a full understanding of it. It's actually not called Competitive pathway but Competent Authority (which UK has been designated as one) pathway. However the catch is, quoted from the Medical Board website:

- IMGs who have ... completed training or assessment with an approved competent authority may apply for provisional registration via the Competent Authority pathway.

- Following satisfactory completion of 12 months of supervised practice (that's an internship), Competent Authority pathway registrants may be eligible to apply for general registration with the Board.

That means far from looking at a Registrar position you would be applying for an Aus internship first, which may not be easy as IMGs are even lower in priority ranking than int'l grads in Aus some of whom miss out on an internship every year.
 

Crow

Moderator Band 🦧
Moderator
My application was reviewed by a Nursing Manager where I did volunteering and a Specialist doctor where I did a research assistant role in data collection in an Aged care facility. But that's why I said "shocking" probably that was either not enough or I seriously doubt whether they even read my application.
Just because you have a strong ATAR and did work experience / had someone read your application doesn't suddenly make you an ideal candidate for JCU. To assume that they didn't even read your application purely because you didn't get an interview is rather self-entitled.
 

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LMG!

Moderator
Staff Member of the Year 2019
I think you have not got a full understanding of it. It's actually not called Competitive pathway but Competent Authority (which UK has been designated as one) pathway. However the catch is, quoted from the Medical Board website:

- IMGs who have ... completed training or assessment with an approved competent authority may apply for provisional registration via the Competent Authority pathway.

- Following satisfactory completion of 12 months of supervised practice (that's an internship), Competent Authority pathway registrants may be eligible to apply for general registration with the Board.

That means far from looking at a Registrar position you would be applying for an Aus internship first, which may not be easy as IMGs are even lower in priority ranking than int'l grads in Aus some of whom miss out on an internship every year.
Yes, it was my understanding that an internship year would need to be completed, too, but I was doubting myself given the OP’s apparent confidence with explaining (and relying on) the pathway. Thanks A1.
 

A1

Admissions Speculator
Moderator
What I refer is the Competitive Pathway where the GMC accredited FY1 and FY2 completion should be accredited directly in Australia by the Medical Board.
I have done a little more reading. This is the flow chart for the Competent Authority pathway, with the UK being a competent authority your qualification is accredited by AMC but you need to obtain an Aus intern position even before getting Provisional registration with the Medical Board


What you referred to sounds more like the Specialist or Partial Specialist pathway. You'd need to have done a bit more than FY1 & FY2 in the UK.
 

cnbas

Member
I have done a little more reading. This is the flow chart for the Competent Authority pathway, with the UK being a competent authority your qualification is accredited by AMC but you need to obtain an Aus intern position even before getting Provisional registration with the Medical Board


What you referred to sounds more like the Specialist or Partial Specialist pathway. You'd need to have done a bit more than FY1 & FY2 in the UK.
It is the Competent Authority Pathway. My brother is going through this right now. After finishing FY1 and FY2 he needs to secure an employment offer as a SRMO/ Registrar position. I have just spoken to the specialist who employed the UK graduates who finished FY1 and FY2 and got placement in those positions although they are all UK Nationals. I was told that the hospital will recommend to MBA for the full registration after a period of work as Registrar 1. Initially it will be an unaccredited position and confirmed after a period of work (need to get the period prob 1 year) it will turn to be an accredited position through the employing hospital recommendation. This information is straight from the doctors and the specialist first hand information. These doctors never need to work as interns after FY2. We know that greying. JMO position is very hard for IMGs. But as you said they can not approach MBA to get direct registration without a job offer. The specialist told me that after getting job offer in Med Reg 1 the hospital will arrange for the necessary paper work for full registration. My brother had been advised by the hospital authorities with the above information. I apologise for misquoting the competent authority. Additionally getting a job offer requires some search through all available internet channels. So it will not be seamless as it seems. These doctors did exactly that got interviews through Skype for MED Reg 1 and currently employed in NSW very close to my residence. My brother aims to take this path and I will surely post what happens with him. Cheers.
 

d99

Member
It is the Competent Authority Pathway. My brother is going through this right now. After finishing FY1 and FY2 he needs to secure an employment offer as a SRMO/ Registrar position. I have just spoken to the specialist who employed the UK graduates who finished FY1 and FY2 and got placement in those positions although they are all UK Nationals. I was told that the hospital will recommend to MBA for the full registration after a period of work as Registrar 1. Initially it will be an unaccredited position and confirmed after a period of work (need to get the period prob 1 year) it will turn to be an accredited position through the employing hospital recommendation. This information is straight from the doctors and the specialist first hand information. These doctors never need to work as interns after FY2. We know that greying. JMO position is very hard for IMGs. But as you said they can not approach MBA to get direct registration without a job offer. The specialist told me that after getting job offer in Med Reg 1 the hospital will arrange for the necessary paper work for full registration. My brother had been advised by the hospital authorities with the above information. I apologise for misquoting the competent authority. Additionally getting a job offer requires some search through all available internet channels. So it will not be seamless as it seems. These doctors did exactly that got interviews through Skype for MED Reg 1 and currently employed in NSW very close to my residence. My brother aims to take this path and I will surely post what happens with him. Cheers.
Although the competent authority pathway works well for UK graduates today, please note that this situation in 5-8 years time will most likely be very different, even if you have Australian citizenship status. As you can only secure a job by approaching individual hospitals (and not like Aus graduates who participate in a centralised matching system) you might find it tough finding a position considering the numbers of Australian graduates projected. Not to mention you would also be subject to the 10 year moratorium. The only seamless way (if I'm not mistaken) is for you to finish your GP training in the UK, obtain the MRCGP and then gain automatic specialist status in Australia as a GP. I don't think this is the same for other specialties.

All the best with your admissions, hope it all works out for you!
 
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Mana

there are no stupid questions, only people
Administrator
cnbas LMG! A1

That's a WOW ATAR score. Congratulations. I am also from NSW. I missed in a similar fashion by a whisker UMAT (57, 56,65) but ATAR is less though 99.20. I was predicted 99.90 but bombed in the final exams in Physics and that pulled the prediction down. I made the interview at UNSW and got Uni Melb (7 years guaranteed entry but need to maintain GPA and finish MMI). Shockingly I did not get an interview for JCU. Missed the Section 1 cutoff for JMP Newcastle by 2 marks etc...I did not hear anything from UTAS but got the Med research 8-year option (too long). Did you get a reply from UTAS as they may for very high ATAR for interstate although the cut off is only 95+? Did you get the psychometric testing invite from Bond? Dumb question...you definitely would have. Good luck to you.

My last point of call is Bond and planning to resit UMAT and see if I get close to 190 this time???. Failing all, I am off to the UK in September 2018, as I got three offers Newcastle, Plymouth, and Exeter, all with 5 years MBBS program. I did very well in the UKCAT (similar to UMAT) exam LOL. Complete 2 years Foundation Year program (Internship) after MBBS in the UK and get a job under competitive pathway in the AMC as a Registrar in Australia...not too bad considering it takes the same amount of time for a local student who does the 5 year degree in Austrlaia and also provides full registration with GMC, worldwide recognition for employment! It does better than who got in UNSW, USyd, UQ, and Flinders all have 6 to 8 years to complete MBBS/MD. But need to be away from home. So all is not lost. Then commence the Specialisation Basic trainee program. That's the 8-year plan from me. I though this would give you some motivation. Good luck.
Mana and pi, I’d be interested in your takes (if you have time) on the OP’s 8 Year Plan. Is it as seamless as it sounds?
The feasibility of the UK 8 year plan is limited by a few things:

1. Whether you actually end up with a UK internship after graduation which is NOT guaranteed given that you'd be lower priority as an international graduate. The UK just opened up a whole lot more medical school places (something like 25% increase in medical students) so you might end up with the short straw in terms of whether you actually land an internship. Difficult to predict what it's going to be like in 5 years, but I think it's possible the UK might end up with a bit of an oversupply. As a rough guide from this BBC article which is now 1+ years old:
Student doctor numbers to rise by 25%
- 2% increase is required to keep up with demand
- but medical school places will increase by 25% which seems like a much larger response than is necessary for the number of training places available?

2. What you actually want to specialise in if you are trying to get a registrar position in Australia. If you are looking to do something where demand for places is much lower than the supply of places (you can check which specialties are over and undersubscribed here: Map My Health Career ) then it might be quite feasible to be able to do your training as a registrar here if the situation in 5-6 years time is similar to now. On the other hand, if you're looking to get into an oversubscribed specialty, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle (comparatively more uphill than someone who did internship/residency in Australia would be, that is). There is a bottleneck in training positions regardless, and it's not exactly getting any better at the moment (year on year it gets worse) so again your ability to come back here to practice as a registrar may be limited. That said, we could certainly do with more psychiatrists, chronic pain specialists, and geriatricians, for example - especially in rural or remote areas.

3. Or, if you don't get a registrar position in Australia - whether you'd be chosen over some UK citizen for their specialty training positions in whatever you happen to want to train in, and then whether you get some recognition of that in Australia (which as alluded to above is dependent on the relevant Royal Australian College of whatever it is). Given that a registrar position is a significant government funded investment (both in the UK and here) it's often the case that they will take the domestic over the international because they are more likely to stay within the country and serve the public in that specialty - what you are planning to do is one of the reasons why the UK would be less likely to choose you for the registrar positions.



Oh, the thread title. I think there is some stigma associated with going to Bond University (basically the whole going full fee thing because you didn't get into a non-full-fee place) but by and large people don't care by the time you get into registrar training - people care about what kind (and how good) of doctor you are, what experience you have had as a doctor and what your CV looks like.
 
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cnbas

Member
cnbas LMG! A1
Thanks a lot Mana, A1 and D99 for your time and analysis that forecasted the future trend for UK trained doctors to get accredited positions in Australia. If there is no avenue in Australia to study medicine, I will end up taking that option and shape up things as the situation warrants. A senior of my brother from Melbourne is in FY2 now. It will be the interesting to see what happens with him. Thanks again fir your kind advice. Much appreciated.




The feasibility of the UK 8 year plan is limited by a few things:

1. Whether you actually end up with a UK internship after graduation which is NOT guaranteed given that you'd be lower priority as an international graduate. The UK just opened up a whole lot more medical school places (something like 25% increase in medical students) so you might end up with the short straw in terms of whether you actually land an internship. Difficult to predict what it's going to be like in 5 years, but I think it's possible the UK might end up with a bit of an oversupply. As a rough guide from this BBC article which is now 1+ years old:
Student doctor numbers to rise by 25%
- 2% increase is required to keep up with demand
- but medical school places will increase by 25% which seems like a much larger response than is necessary for the number of training places available?

2. What you actually want to specialise in if you are trying to get a registrar position in Australia. If you are looking to do something where demand for places is much lower than the supply of places (you can check which specialties are over and undersubscribed here: Map My Health Career ) then it might be quite feasible to be able to do your training as a registrar here if the situation in 5-6 years time is similar to now. On the other hand, if you're looking to get into an oversubscribed specialty, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle (comparatively more uphill than someone who did internship/residency in Australia would be, that is). There is a bottleneck in training positions regardless, and it's not exactly getting any better at the moment (year on year it gets worse) so again your ability to come back here to practice as a registrar may be limited. That said, we could certainly do with more psychiatrists, chronic pain specialists, and geriatricians, for example - especially in rural or remote areas.

3. Or, if you don't get a registrar position in Australia - whether you'd be chosen over some UK citizen for their specialty training positions in whatever you happen to want to train in, and then whether you get some recognition of that in Australia (which as alluded to above is dependent on the relevant Royal Australian College of whatever it is). Given that a registrar position is a significant government funded investment (both in the UK and here) it's often the case that they will take the domestic over the international because they are more likely to stay within the country and serve the public in that specialty - what you are planning to do is one of the reasons why the UK would be less likely to choose you for the registrar positions.
Thanks
 

cnbas

Member
Just because you have a strong ATAR and did work experience / had someone read your application doesn't suddenly make you an ideal candidate for JCU. To assume that they didn't even read your application purely because you didn't get an interview is rather self-entitled.
I do not consider I have a strong ATAR at all. Did I say that? There are at the least 1000 students above me. That clearly precludes me from getting any Interview. I am sorry for expressing my feeling in this forum about JCU application process. I did not get probably for some very good reasons and the chapter is closed.
 

MDIzzy

Member
Hey Homies, I've got to say in regards to this thread title- my answer would be strongly no. Bond is an exceptional Medical school, producing competent graduates and anyone with prejudices against the cost of the program should rethink these :cool:
 

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