For the future HSC students... UMAT

[biom]

That is interesting... do you have data that shows a high correlation between high UMATs and high ATARs? If that is true then the UMAT adds no value.

My understanding was that UMAT attempted to be , if not orthogonal, at least somewhat at a different perspective to the ATAR.

Equating ATARs to being "smart" is a somewhat brave approach. If I do ext2 maths, physics, chem and Advanced English am I less smart than someone who gets a higher ATAR doing Senior Science, General Maths.....

 

[Mana]

That is interesting... do you have data that shows a high correlation between high UMATs and high ATARs? If that is true then the UMAT adds no value.

My understanding was that UMAT attempted to be , if not orthogonal, at least somewhat at a different perspective to the ATAR.

Intelligence is intelligence, and smart people score higher than less smart ones on non-knowledge based aptitude tests regardless of the format.
Smart people also get higher ATARs. Ergo, correlation.

However, saying that the UMAT adds no value if this is true is invalid here, because to some extent one can compensate in a knowledge based test setting, such as that used for most year 12 subjects, by preparing prior to the exam. In this way the supposed purpose of the UMAT is to be able to pick those who are intrinsically intelligent in the target domains.

Basically, both ATAR and UMAT are correlated to intelligence, but you can study for your year 12 exams and get a higher ATAR.
(You can study for the UMAT too somewhat, but ACER doesn't want you to know that).

Equating ATARs to being "smart" is a somewhat brave approach.

Not equating ATAR to being smart is the alternative, and that one is a bloody stupid approach, especially when it comes to selecting students for entry into difficult courses at university.

If I do ext2 maths, physics, chem and Advanced English am I less smart than someone who gets a higher ATAR doing Senior Science, General Maths.....

Going by the above where we must equate ATAR to academic intelligence for the purposes of selecting for university courses?
Yes, absolutely.

That and if you did those higher scaling subjects and sucked at them, you'd be stupid not only in the fact that you couldn't score decently in them but also in not knowing yourself very well.

 

[biom]

Intelligence is intelligence, and smart people score higher than less smart ones on non-knowledge based aptitude tests regardless of the format.
Smart people also get higher ATARs. Ergo, correlation.

You could be right.... but that is not an evidence based reference you have provided.

That and if you did those higher scaling subjects and sucked at them, you'd be stupid not only in the fact that you couldn't score decently in them but also in not knowing yourself very well.

LMGTFY

 

[DrDrLMG!]

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that ATAR is a reflection of academic achievement*, while UMAT is an aptitude test mostly (though not completely, in my opinion) unrelated to academic achievement.

Of the two, and as someone who administers these on the regular (including twice today), UMAT is closer in construct to an IQ assessment than ATAR will ever be. S3, in particular, is directly ripped from all the well known IQ assessments and is generally understood to reflect fluid intelligence. Processing speed and working memory components are firmly embedded in all sections, while visuospatial reasoning and verbal comprehension are definitely included in sections 1 and 2.

Add in some luck (most people will bulk guess 10 or so questions at the end), some practice effects (for some), and some psychological fun such as anxiety, and you've got the closest thing to a mass-administered IQ assessment as you're likely to get.

But what's IQ without proof you can actually use it? Especially when it comes to the government first shelling out gazillions of dollars to educate you with a CSP or BMP, then to trust the health of the nation to you. So that's where ATAR comes in. Or GPA. ATAR and GPA rely on intelligence, yes, but also staying power, motivation, teachability (technical term ), long term memory, learning, executive functioning, amongst other things.

Combine the two with a face to face interview to make sure the individual can string two words together with some degree of composure and maturity, and you're on your way to a method for culling thousands of very smart, motivated people down to the sort of numbers that can actually be accommodated.

I'm absolutely not saying it's a perfect system**, but I definitely follow the rationale and logic of it for the Universities that choose to use it (in whatever combination).

* have already admitted elsewhere that I'm too old to have ever received an ATAR so, seriously, correct me if I'm wrong!

(** a perfect system doesn't, and can't, exist, btw)

Finally, noting as an aside, I think it's generally the people with predicted ATARs that are, what?, 90+?, who sit UMAT in the first place. Using words like 'high' and 'low' to describes the two sets of scores in the same sentence can be misleading, as the individuals who comprise the two cohorts are not equal. Even someone with, say 50th %ile UMAT, is at 50%ile of the top 10% of ATAR scorers. I feel like Universities recognise this, which is why a combination of the two is used to fine tune who gets an offer.

Obviously, rurality, ATSI, EAS etc is a whole, slightly different, ball game

/my 2 cents on why I don't mind the ATAR/UMAT combo and why just one or the other doesn't provide the same amount or breadth of information as the two do...

 

[pi]

Now the correlation between UMAT and so-called "academic intelligence" is undoubtedly a contentious one that has plagued the minds of many a naysayer for generations on end. What is less contentious is the proven association between the UMAT and having red hair.

Introduction

Despite what many might think, UMAT correlating well with students having red hair is well known across hundreds of nations all over the world.[1,2] UMAT correlating well with students having red hair has been an established association for several centuries and has a very important meaning in the lives of many, especially those with the MC1R mutation.[1] It would be safe to assume that UMAT correlating well with students having red hair is going to be around for a long time and have an enormous impact on the lives of many people. This is of greatest importance due to the influx of dark-haired individuals, especially those from the Asian subcontinent, seeking admission into medicine via the UMAT pathway.[1,2]

Social & Cultural Factors

UMAT correlating well with students having red hair has a large role in Australian, so-called "bogan", culture.[2] Many people can often be seen taking part in activities associated with UMAT in traditional Australian culture, such as the old classic family game of "beer pong" which has been a father-son tradition since the days of Ned Kelly and his gang of hipsters.[3] This is partly because people of most ages can be involved and families are brought together by this.[1,3] Generally a person who displays their dislike for such games which remain unparalleled as UMAT tutoring mechanisms, may be considered an outcast.[2] Given that red haired individuals are often seen as inherent social outcasts, they often strive to out-do others in games such as beer pong, and hence develop superior UMAT skills.[2,3]

Economic Factors

It is not common practice to associate economics with UMAT correlating well with students having red hair. Generally, UMAT correlating well with students having red hair would be thought to have no effect on our economic situation, but there are in fact some effects that can dramatically shape our economic landscape. The sales industry associated with UMAT is actually a 2.3 billion dollar a year industry and growing each year, mainly due to the efforts of the aforementioned dark haired populations who spend more money on "UMAT prep" than the nation does on funding healthcare. The industry employs nearly 150,000 people in Victoria and NSW alone. The stats for South Australia and Tasmania are not so readily available, this is primarily because no one cares about those poor excuses for states. It would be safe to say that UMAT plays an important role in Australian economics and shouldn't be taken for granted. The fact that red haired individuals by-pass this whole "UMAT prep" business is a testament to their raw ingenuity and talent.

Environmental Factors

After a year-long research project alongside my medical degree, I've been able to conclude that UMAT correlating well with students having red hair doesn't negatively effect the environment at all. In fact, evidence suggests that the red hair reflects more sunlight back into the atmosphere and thus plays a role in preventing global warming whilst also keeping the individual's head nice and cool.[3] Given that many choose to play the classic outdoor game of beer pong, this bodes well for our environment and future.[3] This does not occur in a population of dark-haired individuals, who in fact are often seen indoors in front of fancy electronic gadgets and elaborate and heavy textbooks.[1,3] Thus, red haired individuals doing well in the UMAT has produced some positive effects on our sweet little nature.[3]

Political Factors

Oh does UMAT correlating well with students having red hair ever influence politics. Last year 5 candidates running for some sort of position used UMAT correlating well with students having red hair as the primary topic of their campaign.[4,5] These 5 candidates were indeed named John, Susan, Xue, Subramanium, and Prof Goldstein.[4,5] A person might think UMAT correlating well with students having red hair would be a bad topic to lead a campaign with, but in fact with the social and environmental impact it has, this topic was able to gain a great number of followers on a strong Change.org campaign.[4,5] These 5 candidates went 4 for 5 on winning their positions across the country.[4,5]

Conclusion

UMAT correlating well with students having red hair seem to be a much more important association than most give credit for. Next time you see or think of UMAT correlating well with students having red hair, think about what you just read and realize what is really going on. It is likely you under valued UMAT correlating well with students having red hair before, but will now start to give the credited needed and deserved. But then again, who cares?[6]

References
1. You CH, Oer K, Hav RY, Best R. Study of UMAT and bowel function: sub-study in red haired and dark-haired cadidates. Gastroenterology 1980; 80: 311-314.
2. Smith LM, Gono RB, Owen LMG, et al. Predisposing factors to UMAT success. Lancet 1989; 2: 352-355.
3. Hebert LA, Mana B. Red hair and environmental benefits: a randomised control trial. N Engl J Med 2009; 340: 540-541.
4. Royal MSO Hospital Bone Marrow Transplant Team. Bone transplants in red haired individuals and UMAT performance: an ethical conundrum but a fun trial to part-take in. Lancet 1977; 21: 742-744.
5. Stu LM, Ben RB, Skarzin D, et al; American Diabetes Association. Does UMAT prep predispose to Diabetes? An expert commentary for the 21st century. Diabetes Care 2009; 9: 1-5.
6. Why making UMAT threads like this are a waste of time [editorial]. BMJ 1984; 283: 628.

 

[Oer]

For the future HSC students, My advice will be to target 99% for ATAR and spend the whole first 6 months of your HSC year to get a very good UMAT(all sections) results. ALL the big unis(Sydney and Melbourne) don't care about UMAT but UWS, UQ and even UNE put more weight on UMAT. I find it absurd.

@life of pi and I politely would like to say that UNSW and Monash are better than USYD and UMelb respectively and we are happy to 2v2 the "big unis"

I'm not sure how you find it absurd. If anything, absurd are the "big uni's" with the 99.95/99.9 atar cutoffs!
Most people should be appreciative they decided to use UMAT because otherwise the minimum atar to enter medicine would be inaccessible to most except those who achieve very high 99s.

But yea, people should dedicate more time to UMAT I agree.

Yes and no - everyone is an individual - people should analyse their strengths and weaknesses, and use all the information to figure out where to spend their time studying. I don't like the idea of there being a correct way to work towards getting into medicine, tbh.

Hi, I didn't mean to undermine UMAT aor ATAR here. My feeling is that getting a 99+ ATAR is much harder than getting 95%. But the difference between 95% and 99% in UMAT may be due to 3/4 more correct answers. Furthermore, I don't believe that UMAT helps to select the perfect (let's say good) doctors for the future. I think the UNSW selection processes seems to be very reasonable and it is more or less similar to the British universities. To be frank, My family doctor is "Dr Google", then I will talk to a real doctor, because I have this feeling that doctors are not smart enough to handle my back pain (just kidding).

The idea behind 95 ATAR was to compensate for the inherent flaws of it. E.g. the school you attend can significantly impact your ATAR. Some people don't live in areas with good schools, don't have the same opportunities etc. (I believe, not 100%) Whilst UMAT is trying to test your inherent skills and not knowledge. Now whether UMAT actually does this is debatable, but I think that’s kind of the approach they were trying to take. They are essentially saying, if you can get 95 ATAR we believe you have the capabilities to complete the course, and then everyone’s on a level playing field with UMAT. (I think, this is my interpretation, may be entirely wrong).

I would agree that it's designed to balance things out, yeah. Fact is, looking purely at ATAR is too narrow, and you get more rounded people if you look at people who get decent ATARs, UMATs and interviews - that means someone is consistently excelling and probably more suitable than someone with just a high ATAR.

Hmm, I would have to disagree to some extent. ATAR is a number, defined by your rank amongst that graduating cohort.

Of course, without doubt, Medicine is an academically rigorous and demanding course.... Thus, a "high ATAR" reflects your academic skills (to some extent).... It wouldn't seem logical to allow a "lesser-able" student to complete a course where they wouldn't be able to complete it.. I am not saying they can't, but ATAR is a way to ensure that one is able to complete such a jam packed course

It's one measure of many possible ones, though.

Anyone out there that has studied med and say Law or Engineering that is able to compare the relative difficulty?

Relative difficulty how though? The fact is that most would say a BA is easier than an MD, but I'd probably have a much larger chance of failing a BA. So which is really more difficult than the other?
That being said law is probs the worst lol

I would advise everyone to get 99.95 ATAR and 100%ile UMAT and also to have perfect interview skills.

YEP

Not all doctors need to have empathetic communication skills, and while it's a desirable trait to have, it's not more important than being intelligent enough to be medically competent, which is what the ATAR is used as a guide to.

"We still need radiologists and pathologists" :")

There are always schools which have smarter students than others because they are the ones that select those students at the point of entry. There are students who are smarter than other students and they are more likely to get into schools that are more selective with their entry.

The purpose of the UMAT isn't to omit those from high scoring schools - you'll find that while there are people who get low ATARs and high UMAT and vice versa that actually the UMAT is positively correlated with a high ATAR - that is, people with high ATAR tend to get high UMAT and people with low ATAR tend to get low UMAT.

What exactly did you think the purpose of the UMAT was, that was defeated in this case?

That is interesting... do you have data that shows a high correlation between high UMATs and high ATARs? If that is true then the UMAT adds no value.

My understanding was that UMAT attempted to be , if not orthogonal, at least somewhat at a different perspective to the ATAR.

Equating ATARs to being "smart" is a somewhat brave approach. If I do ext2 maths, physics, chem and Advanced English am I less smart than someone who gets a higher ATAR doing Senior Science, General Maths.....

Intelligence is intelligence, and smart people score higher than less smart ones on non-knowledge based aptitude tests regardless of the format.
Smart people also get higher ATARs. Ergo, correlation.

However, saying that the UMAT adds no value if this is true is invalid here, because to some extent one can compensate in a knowledge based test setting, such as that used for most year 12 subjects, by preparing prior to the exam. In this way the supposed purpose of the UMAT is to be able to pick those who are intrinsically intelligent in the target domains.

Basically, both ATAR and UMAT are correlated to intelligence, but you can study for your year 12 exams and get a higher ATAR.
(You can study for the UMAT too somewhat, but ACER doesn't want you to know that).



Not equating ATAR to being smart is the alternative, and that one is a bloody stupid approach, especially when it comes to selecting students for entry into difficult courses at university.



Going by the above where we must equate ATAR to academic intelligence for the purposes of selecting for university courses?
Yes, absolutely.

That and if you did those higher scaling subjects and sucked at them, you'd be stupid not only in the fact that you couldn't score decently in them but also in not knowing yourself very well.

Intelligence isn't a single scale though. People are more or less intelligent in different areas. I imagine there would certainly be a positive correlation between and UMAT scores, but the fact is that there is a difference - if we removed one or the other, we would realistically have a very different group of people at the very top being accepted for interviews. There's also a survivorship bias - you're most likely to hear about the people who do well in both, because they're the ones getting offers and actually doing medicine, not the people who do well in just one.

So why would there be a positive correlation though? There are certain common types of intelligence needed in both - you ability to memorise, to synthesise information, to work through logic problems, to understand multi-faceted systems. And then the HSC subjects, the UMAT test and the interview specific other smaller things, types of intelligence like emotional intelligence or writing skills.
So that brings another important type of intelligence - the intelligence to plan well, study wisely, and just having positive work ethic. Some people will do the best they can, and as such are more likely to be on top in the UMAT, ATAR, interview and in many other measures.
So the more options we give for people to prove themselves, the more the people who consistently do well will shine. And those are the doctors we need - those who will apply themselves and be the best they can be, in ANY situation. Not just for one year in a few HSC subjects. That's not intelligence on it's own.

 

[Oer]

Now the correlation between UMAT and so-called "academic intelligence" is undoubtedly a contentious one that has plagued the minds of many a naysayer for generations on end. What is less contentious is the proven association between the UMAT and having red hair.

Introduction

Despite what many might think, UMAT correlating well with students having red hair is well known across hundreds of nations all over the world. UMAT correlating well with students having red hair has been an established association for several centuries and has a very important meaning in the lives of many, especially those with the MC1R mutation. It would be safe to assume that UMAT correlating well with students having red hair is going to be around for a long time and have an enormous impact on the lives of many people. This is of greatest importance due to the influx of dark-haired individuals, especially those from the Asian subcontinent, seeking admission into medicine via the UMAT pathway.

Social & Cultural Factors

UMAT correlating well with students having red hair has a large role in Australian, so-called "bogan", culture. Many people can often be seen taking part in activities associated with UMAT in traditional Australian culture, such as the old classic family game of "beer pong" which has been a father-son tradition since the days of Ned Kelly and his gang of hipsters. This is partly because people of most ages can be involved and families are brought together by this. Generally a person who displays their dislike for such games which remain unparalleled as UMAT tutoring mechanisms, may be considered an outcast. Given that red haired individuals are often seen as inherent social outcasts, they often strive to out-do others in games such as beer pong, and hence develop superior UMAT skills.

Economic Factors

It is not common practice to associate economics with UMAT correlating well with students having red hair. Generally, UMAT correlating well with students having red hair would be thought to have no effect on our economic situation, but there are in fact some effects that can dramatically shape our economic landscape. The sales industry associated with UMAT is actually a 2.3 billion dollar a year industry and growing each year, mainly due to the efforts of the aforementioned dark haired populations who spend more money on "UMAT prep" than the nation does on funding healthcare. The industry employs nearly 150,000 people in Victoria and NSW alone. The stats for South Australia and Tasmania are not so readily available, this is primarily because no one cares about those poor excuses for states. It would be safe to say that UMAT plays an important role in Australian economics and shouldn't be taken for granted. The fact that red haired individuals by-pass this whole "UMAT prep" business is a testament to their raw ingenuity and talent.

Environmental Factors

After a year-long research project alongside my medical degree, I've been able to conclude that UMAT correlating well with students having red hair doesn't negatively effect the environment at all. In fact, evidence suggests that the red hair reflects more sunlight back into the atmosphere and thus plays a role in preventing global warming whilst also keeping the individual's head nice and cool. Given that many choose to play the classic outdoor game of beer pong, this bodes well for our environment and future. This does not occur in a population of dark-haired individuals, who in fact are often seen indoors in front of fancy electronic gadgets and elaborate and heavy textbooks. Thus, red haired individuals doing well in the UMAT has produced some positive effects on our sweet little nature.

Political Factors

Oh does UMAT correlating well with students having red hair ever influence politics. Last year 5 candidates running for some sort of position used UMAT correlating well with students having red hair as the primary topic of their campaign. These 5 candidates were indeed named John, Susan, Xue, Subramanium, and Prof Goldstein. A person might think UMAT correlating well with students having red hair would be a bad topic to lead a campaign with, but in fact with the social and environmental impact it has, this topic was able to gain a great number of followers on a strong Change.org campaign. These 5 candidates went 4 for 5 on winning their positions across the country.

Conclusion

UMAT correlating well with students having red hair seem to be a much more important association than most give credit for. Next time you see or think of UMAT correlating well with students having red hair, think about what you just read and realize what is really going on. It is likely you under valued UMAT correlating well with students having red hair before, but will now start to give the credited needed and deserved.

References
You CH, Lee K, Chey RY, Meng R. Study of UMAT and bowel function. Gastroenterology 1980; 79: 311-314.
Smith LM, Haynes RB, Owen D, et al. Predisposing factors to UMAT success. Lancet 1989; 1: 352-355.
Hebert LA, Rovin B. Red hair and environmental benefits: a randomised control trial. N Engl J Med 2009; 360: 540-541.
Royal Marsden Hospital Bone Marrow Transplant Team. Bone transplants in red haired individuals and UMAT performance. Lancet 1977; 2: 742-744.
Smith LM, Jones RB, Wilson D, et al; American Diabetes Association. Does UMAT prep predispose to Diabetes? An expert commentary for the 21st centruty. Diabetes Care 2009; 10: 1-5.
Why making UMAT threads like this are a waste of time [editorial]. BMJ 1981; 283: 628.

Actually nah everything else in this thread just became irrelevant tbh. Best post 2k16

 

[Sithedog]

I have a question how can UMAT be fair if some places have UMAT tuitions and others including rural areas don't. How many questions did students guess. How can Umat show whether you make a good doctor someone with a low Umat and get an OP 1 can be the finest doctor in the world compared to someone with a high umat and High op or ATAR.

 

[biom]

The prize for the most creative response definitely is in the hands of Life of Pi.

@LMG Thanks very much for your interesting and informative response above.

I would argue GPA is a better measure of "staying power" and the other related qualities you mention than an ATAR.

I think that the ATAR is "gamed" as much as possible by high-scoring students. ie what is the easiest combination of subjects that I can do that will deliver the maximum ATAR? I suspect the response from many students to this observation might be Well... of course....

Clearly students with extremely high ATARs are academically excellent. Whether they have the staying power to drive through a university degree is a different question. I suppose this is one of the reasons for the change to Graduate Med.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

The prize for the most creative response definitely is in the hands of Life of Pi.

@LMG Thanks very much for your interesting and informative response above.

I would argue GPA is a better measure of "staying power" and the other related qualities you mention than an ATAR.

I think that the ATAR is "gamed" as much as possible by high-scoring students. ie what is the easiest combination of subjects that I can do that will deliver the maximum ATAR? I suspect the response from many students to this observation might be Well... of course....

Clearly students with extremely high ATARs are academically excellent. Whether they have the staying power to drive through a university degree is a different question. I suppose this is one of the reasons for the change to Graduate Med.

GPA is definitely a better, overall indicator of 'staying power', but ATAR is the best (only?) indicator of it in a school leaver. The only reason I added GPA into the conversation was for the handful of undergraduate Universities that have non-standard entry. I'm not talking about grad entry at all because I know very little about it.

Side note: GPA can also be 'gamed'. In fact, this process is actively encouraged here at MSO when advice is provided to those seeking an entry pathway that relies on it, whether that be non-standard or grad entry (ie. recommendations that people do, say, Nursing over Med Sci). There are obviously numerous other factors that play into this advice, but the GPA factor is definitely in there.

That the system ~can be gamed is one of its flaws, but like I said, the perfect system doesn't exist. Also, coming up with the equation to a high GPA or ATAR is one thing, achieving it is another...

 

[A1]

I suppose this is one of the reasons for the change to Graduate Med.

The traditional-type Graduate Med, the unis (USyd, Melb, UQ, Griffith, UWA) give half the places to Y12s. Their condition for MD is a token GPA of 5.

The new-type MD (Unsw, Bond, Monash, and likely JMP, Adel) is essentially the same MBBS course labelled with a pre-MD phase + an MD phase. About 80% of the cohorts are still admitted at 1st year undergrad level. GPA staying power is hardly a factor in the change to Graduate Med.

 

[iMMO]

The traditional-type Graduate Med, the unis (USyd, Melb, UQ, Griffith, UWA) give half the places to Y12s. Their only condition for MD is a token GPA of 5.

The new-type MD (Unsw, Bond, Monash, and likely JMP, Adel) is essentially the same MBBS course labelled with a pre-MD phase + an MD phase. About 80% of the cohorts are still admitted at 1st year undergrad level. GPA staying power is hardly a factor in the change to Graduate Med.

Half is a significant over estimation. Also, I think he was referring to the GPA needed to apply and get in for post-grad med, rather than a conditional offer through ATAR.

 

[A1]

Half is a significant over estimation.

Not really. UWA half moving toward 70%, UQ exactly half, Griffith 60 out of ~160. Overall not a significant overestimation.

Also, I think he was referring to the GPA needed to apply and get in for post-grad med, rather than a conditional offer through ATAR.

He was referring to GPA staying power being a better measure than Y12's ATAR then concluded maybe why the change to Graduate Med.