• Welcome to MSO!
    We are an online community for current and prospective medical, dental and allied health students and early career professionals from Australia and New Zealand.

    Please read: About MSO | Annual Welcome and Important Information | MSO Rules

    Quick Links To Forums
    Tests/Interviews: UCAT | GAMSAT | Interviews
    Entrance Discussion: Graduate Medicine | Undergraduate Medicine | Dentistry
  • Register with us

    Please consider registering on MSO. Benefits of registering are:
    • Able to post and participate in the forum
    • After 10 posts: Private Message Other Users
    • After 25 posts: Access to the Chatbox
    • After 100 posts: Custom user titles and Ad-free experience

    If you would like to get involved with MSO or have ideas, suggestions, comments, criticisms or other feedback please Contact Us

Internship: NSW Preferencing and Explanation

Hey mana I was wondering what preference order for someone applying from interstate? Will I stand a chance at the big 4? And does it matter which uni I come from?

ey

As the vast majority of the places will be gone by the time the interstater gets allocated to them in category 2, I would simply preference them in the order that you would like.

As a general rule, your chances at a very popular hospital (i.e. like "the big 4") is pretty close to zero, owing to the fact that all of the places to these networks are allocated in the first round offers - so generally the only way that a category 2 would be allocated a place there would be if a Category 1 was offered a place there and declined it to go interstate.

As interstate rounds would happen later, in general, then oddly enough, from personal observation, I have noticed that people in Category 2 have a better chance at a very popular hospital network if they actually get allocated in later offer rounds - this gives the Category 1 applicants time to receive offers from other states and thus decline their offer in NSW.

That said, as a Category 2, you have no control over which Category 2 offer round you receive an internship in (HETI will allocate a random selection of Category 2 applicants each round by this system).
 
I know this has probably been discussed a lot, does anyone have stats/stories of people obtaining a interstate internship? Specifically for nsw - priority 1 graduates are guaranteed an intern position but anyone know what proportion of priority 2?
In addition since NSW is a ballot system how do they differentiate between the priority 2 people, with who gets an internship and in which hospital.
 
I know this has probably been discussed a lot, does anyone have stats/stories of people obtaining a interstate internship? Specifically for nsw - priority 1 graduates are guaranteed an intern position but anyone know what proportion of priority 2?

NSW Health offers around 980-990 internships a year. From Med Deans data NSW schools produce ~800 CSP + 60 FFP (UNDS) grads. Assuming all these grads take their NSW allocations there have been at least 120 spots available for priority 2 and lower.

In addition since NSW is a ballot system how do they differentiate between the priority 2 people, with who gets an internship and in which hospital.

See Mana's post just above regarding preference allocation for priority 2. At this stage I don't think they have needed to cut off some since a number of lower-priority int'l grads have been able to get NSW internships. However if you graduate after 2020 there will be ~50 more priority 1s from MQ so beware.
 
Hi there category 4 applicant here, in terms of applying to maximise securing an internship position for 2020, is it advisable to just preference the hospitals in order that I would like? Or would preferencing "less sought after" hospitals give me a higher chance? Cheers!
 
Hi there category 4 applicant here, in terms of applying to maximise securing an internship position for 2020, is it advisable to just preference the hospitals in order that I would like? Or would preferencing "less sought after" hospitals give me a higher chance? Cheers!

I believe this is answered above - as the vast majority will be gone by the time category 4 offers are out, and whether you get an internship is independent of which preference you put down, just preference in the order you want.
 
As the vast majority of the places will be gone by the time the interstater gets allocated to them in category 2, I would simply preference them in the order that you would like.

As a general rule, your chances at a very popular hospital (i.e. like "the big 4") is pretty close to zero, owing to the fact that all of the places to these networks are allocated in the first round offers - so generally the only way that a category 2 would be allocated a place there would be if a Category 1 was offered a place there and declined it to go interstate.

As interstate rounds would happen later, in general, then oddly enough, from personal observation, I have noticed that people in Category 2 have a better chance at a very popular hospital network if they actually get allocated in later offer rounds - this gives the Category 1 applicants time to receive offers from other states and thus decline their offer in NSW.

That said, as a Category 2, you have no control over which Category 2 offer round you receive an internship in (HETI will allocate a random selection of Category 2 applicants each round by this system).

When it comes to looking at Cat 2 applicants' preferences, do you know if the system will consider and compare orders to the 'stack' (as with Cat 1 offers), or will it strictly work down the list and offer the next available hospital that is undersubscribed (after Cat 1 offers are locked in)?

For example: If an interstate applicant's top 2 preferences were both undersubscribed (after all Cat 1 offers had been sent out and decided upon), but the hospital preferenced at #2 was placed lower down in the majority of other applicants' orders i.e. lower down in the stack, would the system automatically disregard the hospital at #1 and offer the hospital at #2 (to 'minimise the total score')? Or would it offer what was at #1 simply based on order (and essentially disregard stacking)?

Would this then influence the orders for Cat 2 applicants who may want to roll the dice on the popular hospitals, as they too would have to follow the stack (or risk those preferences just being overlooked for a hospital that was placed higher on their list compared to everyone else)?

If this is not the case, then it makes sense to simply preference in the order you like.

Hopefully that makes sense - appreciate any advice you may have!
 
When it comes to looking at Cat 2 applicants' preferences, do you know if the system will consider and compare orders to the 'stack' (as with Cat 1 offers), or will it strictly work down the list and offer the next available hospital that is undersubscribed (after Cat 1 offers are locked in)?

For example: If an interstate applicant's top 2 preferences were both undersubscribed (after all Cat 1 offers had been sent out and decided upon), but the hospital preferenced at #2 was placed lower down in the majority of other applicants' orders i.e. lower down in the stack, would the system automatically disregard the hospital at #1 and offer the hospital at #2 (to 'minimise the total score')? Or would it offer what was at #1 simply based on order (and essentially disregard stacking)?

Would this then influence the orders for Cat 2 applicants who may want to roll the dice on the popular hospitals, as they too would have to follow the stack (or risk those preferences just being overlooked for a hospital that was placed higher on their list compared to everyone else)?

If this is not the case, then it makes sense to simply preference in the order you like.

Hopefully that makes sense - appreciate any advice you may have!

So there are a couple of caveats here which I should mention. As far as I know, each allocation round in the Optimised Allocation system works the same way; the main difference after the Category 1 offers have been given out is the number of places at each hospital is much less (much more so at the popular hospitals).

What the system then does for Cat 2's is this:

1. Find X, where X is the total number of places now available
2. Choose X applicants at random from the Category 2 applicant pool (who have not received a NSW offer yet)
3. Find an allocation which minimises the total score in allocating those X people, and allocate as to one of those iterations.

To clarify - the chance of getting an offer is independent of the preference list you put down as the applicants are chosen in step 2 and the allocation is chosen in step 3.

In your example, the system would be more likely to allocate this applicant to hospital network preference #2 as it minimises the total score for that round.

However, if they had "stacked", then their actual hospital preference #2 might have been far lower down the list, and they might instead have been allocated one of their lower preferences because of where it happened to be in their "stack".

In that sense the Category 2 applicant takes a risk whether or not they "stack" - if they put a preference list as per their actual preference, they optimise their chance of getting at least somewhere they want, whereas if they attempt to "stack", with the limited places on offer (and therefore very skewed allocation), they might end up either being shafted to a lower preference due to the relative competition, or shafted to a lower preference because it was actually higher on the stack than their actual preference.



The caveat of "stacking" is that by doing so you optimise your possibility of getting your first preference at the expense of all other relatively desirable options (because by putting something #1, you place everything else #2 and below, where someone else has put one of those other options at #1). This somewhat works as a Category 1 because essentially all the positions at the "desirable" hospitals are available for that round; as a Category 2 you have the leftovers and so even if you are optimising your chance at #1 you essentially forego any chances at #2 and #3 and so on. This makes a huge difference because in most cases your #1 is likely to have single digit places if any (I know at my hospital network this was the case and I could count the number of interstate domestic and international interns on one hand).

Knowing this, if I was a Category 2 applicant applying to NSW, I'd still be preferencing in the order that I actually want rather than stacking.

Hope that helps.
 
What the system then does for Cat 2's is this:

1. Find X, where X is the total number of places now available
2. Choose X applicants at random from the Category 2 applicant pool (who have not received a NSW offer yet)
3. Find an allocation which minimises the total score in allocating those X people, and allocate as to one of those iterations.

To clarify - the chance of getting an offer is independent of the preference list you put down as the applicants are chosen in step 2 and the allocation is chosen in step 3.

Thanks for clarifying that!

So say if a Cat 2 applicant did want to go to a 'big 4' hospital at #1 and a less popular hospital at #2 (or even 'the big 4' at #1-#4 and a less popular hospital at #5) , is there any way of preferencing to maximise the chance of landing preference #1 i.e. actually be considered for one of the few rare spots that open up for a 'big 4' hospital (preferenced #1) instead of automatically being offered a less popular hospital (#2)?

Going by the above example, it sounds like the Cat 2 applicant will just get an offer to preference #2 even though they want to try to go to a 'big 4' hospital more (assuming that the 'big 4' hospitals are also the most popular amongst Cat 2 applicants).
 
Thanks for clarifying that!

So say if a Cat 2 applicant did want to go to a 'big 4' hospital at #1 and a less popular hospital at #2 (or even 'the big 4' at #1-#4 and a less popular hospital at #5) , is there any way of preferencing to maximise the chance of landing preference #1 i.e. actually be considered for one of the few rare spots that open up for a 'big 4' hospital (preferenced #1) instead of automatically being offered a less popular hospital (#2)?

Going by the above example, it sounds like the Cat 2 applicant will just get an offer to preference #2 even though they want to try to go to a 'big 4' hospital more (assuming that the 'big 4' hospitals are also the most popular amongst Cat 2 applicants).

Given the paucity of these places, as well as the fact that Category 1's aren't going to be declining any offers until they get an offer elsewhere, and that all the popular hospital places are allocated to Category 1's already, the Category 2 applying for these places is plum out of luck unless they get insanely lucky. This is because there are literally zero positions available to Category 2's at any of the popular hospitals until any are declined, and Category 2 offers come out at very similar timings for all states. This means the first batch of Category 2's to get offers will have a zero chance to get positions at the oversubscribed hospitals because these places haven't yet been declined by the Category 1's who wouldn't have declined their only offer!

As a large proportion of Cat 2's as a result will have a zero chance at the popular hospitals, "stacking" doesn't make a lot of sense (as it's impossible to increase your chances for positions that don't exist). In this case, it is vastly preferable for the Category 2 applicant to get their #2 (or highest actual available preference) rather than be piled in the group of applicants that get shafted hard
(because that's what stacking does for Cat 1's as well - you get shafted hard if you don't get your #1 preference as a Cat 1).

By all means do what you want though, because the outcome you get is entirely your responsibility, not mine, whether you choose to follow my advice or not.
 
Given the paucity of these places, as well as the fact that Category 1's aren't going to be declining any offers until they get an offer elsewhere, and that all the popular hospital places are allocated to Category 1's already, the Category 2 applying for these places is plum out of luck unless they get insanely lucky. This is because there are literally zero positions available to Category 2's at any of the popular hospitals until any are declined, and Category 2 offers come out at very similar timings for all states. This means the first batch of Category 2's to get offers will have a zero chance to get positions at the oversubscribed hospitals because these places haven't yet been declined by the Category 1's who wouldn't have declined their only offer!

As a large proportion of Cat 2's as a result will have a zero chance at the popular hospitals, "stacking" doesn't make a lot of sense (as it's impossible to increase your chances for positions that don't exist). In this case, it is vastly preferable for the Category 2 applicant to get their #2 (or highest actual available preference) rather than be piled in the group of applicants that get shafted hard
(because that's what stacking does for Cat 1's as well - you get shafted hard if you don't get your #1 preference as a Cat 1).

I think I get it - so if a Cat 2 applicant places a popular/'big 4' hospital #1 and a less popular hospital #2 (based on own preference), there is still a chance of them getting an offer for #1 more/only if they are selected in a later round (when more Cat 1's have made their choice and spots open at the popular hospitals). If not (e.g. if selected as part of the earliest round offers, or the open spots at the popular hospitals are re-filled), then it is almost guaranteed that they'll get #2 provided it too is undersubscribed, which I agree is still good. But then they would be competing with the applicants who put the same hospital at #1. (I am under the impression that there are multiple rounds of offers, right?)
 
Correct, there are multiple rounds of offers, and yes the person putting said hospital #2 would be competing with others who put that undersubscribed hospital #1 (and that other person who put it #1 would be more likely to get it because it minimises the overall score for that round - this is the entire point of this system).

If you absolutely must get a hospital somewhere in Sydney, for example, as a Cat 2 (for whatever reason) then that would be even more reason to avoid "stacking" and instead putting some safe hospital network first - if your only offer was in (for example) Wollongong, you'd be in a very bad position in regards to whatever it was that you needed to be in Sydney for. Stacking (and not putting a safe preference somewhere high) as a Cat 2 significantly increases your chance of getting something like this, because if the system is unable to give you any of your high preferences then the score it gets for allocating you is going to be high anyway, so it will allocate you somewhere which allows it to free a space for someone else to get a high preference (and thus make the system overall score lower).
 
Last edited:
Correct, there are multiple rounds of offers, and yes the person putting said hospital #2 would be competing with others who put that undersubscribed hospital #1 (and that other person who put it #1 would be more likely to get it because it minimises the overall score for that round - this is the entire point of this system).

If you absolutely must get a hospital somewhere in Sydney, for example, as a Cat 2 (for whatever reason) then that would be even more reason to avoid "stacking" and instead putting some safe hospital network first - if your only offer was in (for example) Wollongong, you'd be in a very bad position in regards to whatever it was that you needed to be in Sydney for. Stacking (and not putting a safe preference somewhere high) as a Cat 2 significantly increases your chance of getting something like this, because if the system is unable to give you any of your high preferences then the score it gets for allocating you is going to be high anyway, so it will allocate you somewhere which allows it to free a space for someone else to get a high preference (and thus make the system overall score lower).

Got it - probably best to put a 'safe preference' somewhere high then (thereby breaking up/away from the 'stack').

Thank you so much
for your answers :) Appreciate all the advice and your perspectives, and being understanding of those of us applying from interstate (as it's a bit harder to find answers to specific questions).
 
Is there any chance the NSW internship system might change in the next 10 years? Preferably into a merit based system like Victoria's?
 
How likely do you think that is?

Let me get out my tarot cards and crystal ball and see...

Nobody will be able to answer this question for you. You are literally asking people to speculate here. It's certainly possible things might change, but apart from that, you can't bank on anything.
 
Let me get out my tarot cards and crystal ball and see...

Nobody will be able to answer this question for you. You are literally asking people to speculate here. It's certainly possible things might change, but apart from that, you can't bank on anything.
Do you know the last time the system changed in any state?
 
There are subtle but potentially meaningful differences to issues such as priority lists every few years or so. Probably the largest change that's occurred within the last while is the ACT breaking from the HETI system, opting to recruit interns internally rather than through the NSW allocation system. If we finally arrive at the point of having a nationalised exit exam for all med schools (something that has been talked about for well over a decade now), then there would be potential for more radical change. But again, nobody will be able to assure you of timelines or likelihoods here.
 
Does anyone have any more specific information about Concord for internship/residency? What distinguishes it from 'the big 4' and does their BPT program have a good reputation?
 
Thanks for the great guide. Still confused about how home hospitals are allocated. Each network has multiple T5 and T3 hospitals. Yet your guide seems to just refer to one of the T5 per network... how do you know which hospital will be your home one?

eg. Network 1 has both RPAH and Dubbo base, why do you refer to just RPAH? Isn't there a chance that your home hospital will be Dubbo?

Any clarity, or link to more information on this would be great thank.
 
Back
Top