Common pitfalls to avoid for year 12 school leavers and other medicine applicants

[realmadrid000]

I feel like there is a very, very good reason why there are a whole lot of people replying to you suggesting NOT to do this and based on the advice that I've written in the first few posts of this thread. I notice you've sent me a PM about this, and while I've given you an answer I feel like it's echoing exactly what chinaski, A1, and Lear are saying, which is basically not to do this degree based on the fact that its entire worth is based on the small chance of you getting into medicine at the end of it.

It's also the case that quite a few graduate entry medical schools do not accept 2 year undergrad degrees for the purposes of entry, and also that the MQ degree is relatively new compared to other "medical science/biomed/health science" degrees out there so even if you were going to go into the pitfall #2 anyway (goodness knows why) surely you'd pick one that was a 3 year degree and that has a longer history or is located at a university with more resources and history to back it up?


Anyway... if you're looking for reassurance that this 2 year MQ degree is an okay backup... you won't find it here, sorry.

But i'm not understanding, even if that chance of me getting into medicine after clinical science is totally null and doesnt come into fruition, I can always do a master degree and still spend 4 years all up - to me it seems like there is no loss; I can exert myself by doing GAMSAT next year (my first year out of HS) and can try to get into medicine from clinical science, if i fail, i can fall back to pharmacy or engineering for 2 years and still only spend 4 years all up.

 

[Mana]

As I've stated in a reply to you:

2 years of MQ clinical science isn't going to fulfill the prerequisites of a Masters of Engineering, sorry.
Also, you might want to check the requirements of a Masters of Pharmacy - for example, the USyd 2 year Masters of Pharmacy has this caveat:
"Applicants who have undertaken a bachelor degree in an accelerated program are eligible to apply only after completion of the full degree. " This means you might be spending a year doing nothing while you wait to be eligible the next year.

Long story short though, Masters degrees are also not necessarily a walk in the park in terms of getting in; by doing a 2 year degree you'll be giving up the use of your ATAR for entry and instead use your GPA for competition into the Masters; I'd be taking the bird in the hand over the one in the bush.

 

[umatresults.jpg]

But i'm not understanding, even if that chance of me getting into medicine after clinical science is totally null and doesnt come into fruition, I can always do a master degree and still spend 4 years all up - to me it seems like there is no loss; I can exert myself by doing GAMSAT next year (my first year out of HS) and can try to get into medicine from clinical science, if i fail, i can fall back to pharmacy or engineering for 2 years and still only spend 4 years all up.

That still doesn't make it the best route to medicine though.

Clinical science is essentially a three year degree crammed into two. Also, the standards would theoretically be higher, given that everyone in your cohort will have the exact same mentality as you (yet very few of you will get in). Based on that, I feel like it'd be pretty difficult to get a good GPA.

Then there's the fact that the GAMSAT requires first year university bio and chem knowledge (i.e. knowledge you will not have until the end of next year). And the fact that one of the sections of the GAMSAT favours people from a humanities background, given that it requires a high degree of written expression. As such, doing clinical science might actually disadvantage you.

Even if you do get straight into postgrad med from there, why are you so sure that completing medicine in the shortest time possible is ideal? Imo, one of the great things about doing postgrad is that you get to try so many more things at uni that you wouldn't get to try if you got straight into medicine (e.g. international exchange and general education courses/ electives - neither of which you would get doing clinical science at MQ).

Everyone else has already given such convincing arguments as to why you shouldn't do clinical science, so this is just my two cents. Hopefully it gives you a bit more perspective

 

[Mana]

I would probably argue that the "best" route to completing a medicine degree for the vast majority of students will be the one that expends the least investment in terms of time, student fees, and lost opportunity. If you could do it in 5 years, this is usually preferable to doing it in 6, because you get to practice medicine 1 year earlier and thus you get 1 year of pay and experience more at the end of the 6 years; or if you wanted to seek other opportunities, you have a full extra year to do it and not get tied down to doing full time study at university.

I fully agree with the other statements though, umatresults.jpg; they seem oddly familiar to some posts I wrote a long time ago.

 

[realmadrid000]

That still doesn't make it the best route to medicine though.

Clinical science is essentially a three year degree crammed into two. Also, the standards would theoretically be higher, given that everyone in your cohort will have the exact same mentality as you (yet very few of you will get in). Based on that, I feel like it'd be pretty difficult to get a good GPA.

Then there's the fact that the GAMSAT requires first year university bio and chem knowledge (i.e. knowledge you will not have until the end of next year). And the fact that one of the sections of the GAMSAT favours people from a humanities background, given that it requires a high degree of written expression. As such, doing clinical science might actually disadvantage you.

Even if you do get straight into postgrad med from there, why are you so sure that completing medicine in the shortest time possible is ideal? Imo, one of the great things about doing postgrad is that you get to try so many more things at uni that you wouldn't get to try if you got straight into medicine (e.g. international exchange and general education courses/ electives - neither of which you would get doing clinical science at MQ).

Everyone else has already given such convincing arguments as to why you shouldn't do clinical science, so this is just my two cents. Hopefully it gives you a bit more perspective

The GAMSAT science section and even the hunanities sections can be learnt from textbooks and courses from what I have heard. I dont see that being a factor to be honest.

I've done my research and spoken to people and I personally favour the fastest route if I was to get accepted into medicine. It is a personal preference thing.

Can someone please summarise such compelling reasons as to not do ClinicalSci?

I stand by the following benefits:

. Can do GAMSAT in first year uni and get into post-grad med very quickly and if done successfully be done in a total of 6 years.
. Can do UCAT too
. If I fail to get into medicine, a career in pharmacy can be done by completing an MPharm given i meet the GPA requirements

 

[realmadrid000]

I would probably argue that the "best" route to completing a medicine degree for the vast majority of students will be the one that expends the least investment in terms of time, student fees, and lost opportunity. If you could do it in 5 years, this is usually preferable to doing it in 6, because you get to practice medicine 1 year earlier and thus you get 1 year of pay and experience more at the end of the 6 years; or if you wanted to seek other opportunities, you have a full extra year to do it and not get tied down to doing full time study at university.

I fully agree with the other statements though, umatresults.jpg; they seem oddly familiar to some posts I wrote a long time ago.

I am talking about ClinicalSci as a route if I don't get into med undergrad. Med undergrad would be 5-6 years. If I do ClinSci and a post-grad med degree, that is 6 years. If I do ClinSci and a masters, that is 4 years. If i transfer from 1st year clinsci to a undergrad degree, that could be 6-7 years.

What other options could I pursue?

Perhaps a bachelors degree in some "employable" degree and then transfer from either 1st or 2nd year into an undergrad course and itll still total ClinSci completion and then an undergraduate degree in medicine plus by doing an "employable" degree, I have the safety net of have a proper degree with a job.

But, in doing so, I lose the opportunity to do GAMSAT earlier as in clinsci as an 18-19 year old whereas after a 4 year bachelor degree, i would be 21

 

[umatresults.jpg]

The GAMSAT science section and even the hunanities sections can be learnt from textbooks and courses from what I have heard. I dont see that being a factor to be honest.

I've done my research and spoken to people and I personally favour the fastest route if I was to get accepted into medicine. It is a personal preference thing.

Can someone please summarise such compelling reasons as to not do ClinicalSci?

I stand by the following benefits:

. Can do GAMSAT in first year uni and get into post-grad med very quickly and if done successfully be done in a total of 6 years.
. Can do UCAT too
. If I fail to get into medicine, a career in pharmacy can be done by completing an MPharm given i meet the GPA requirements

1) Did you even read my post? You won't be able to do GAMSAT in first year, unless you plan to learn first year bio and chem at a faster pace than your already accelerated degree
2) Correct. Just like any degree
3) Did you even read Mana's post?

Edit: I just had a glance at the course structure and they don't have a single chemistry unit over the entire duration of the degree. Good luck with first year GAMSAT lmao realmadrid000

 

[A1]

If I do ClinSci and a post-grad med degree, that is 6 years.

Have you checked MQ ClinSci is 24 units crammed into two calendar years, or is it two years of 3 semesters each?

 

[Mana]

I am talking about ClinicalSci as a route if I don't get into med undergrad. Med undergrad would be 5-6 years. If I do ClinSci and a post-grad med degree, that is 6 years. If I do ClinSci and a masters, that is 4 years. If i transfer from 1st year clinsci to a undergrad degree, that could be 6-7 years.

What other options could I pursue?

Perhaps a bachelors degree in some "employable" degree and then transfer from either 1st or 2nd year into an undergrad course and itll still total ClinSci completion and then an undergraduate degree in medicine plus by doing an "employable" degree, I have the safety net of have a proper degree with a job.

But, in doing so, I lose the opportunity to do GAMSAT earlier as in clinsci as an 18-19 year old whereas after a 4 year bachelor degree, i would be 21

For those who are interested in doing some clinical work, you might want to actually read the first few posts of the thread again; there are good 3 and 4 year career degrees out there which are very much in demand (for example, Audiology and Sonography regularly top the "most in demand" lists for employability in Australia) whereas Nursing is a 3 year degree where you can work as an RN and pick up casual or part time shifts while studying medicine which also has an excellent basis for clinical experience both at uni and then at work after.

 

[realmadrid000]

1) Did you even read my post? You won't be able to do GAMSAT in first year, unless you plan to learn first year bio and chem at a faster pace than your already accelerated degree
2) Correct. Just like any degree
3) Did you even read Mana's post?

Edit: I just had a glance at the course structure and they don't have a single chemistry unit over the entire duration of the degree. Good luck with first year GAMSAT lmao realmadrid000

I dont see what you mean? I'll be able to sit GAMSAT in march. I dont have to wait for the course to teach me, I can study in the summer holidays.

Have you checked MQ ClinSci is 24 units crammed into two calendar years, or is it two years of 3 semesters each?

Quoted fro Macq's website: "This fast-tracked course uses Macquarie’s two regular sessions, as well as two shorter periods between these sessions, to complete a three-year bachelor qualification in only two years."

 

[A1]

Quoted fro Macq's website: "This fast-tracked course uses Macquarie’s two regular sessions, as well as two shorter periods between these sessions, to complete a three-year bachelor qualification in only two years."

I read that too. It's not clear whether "in only two years" means Feb 2020 to Dec 2021, or Feb 2020 to Jan 2022.

If it is the latter, you can sit GAMSAT in 2020 but you won't be eligible to apply in 2021. And when you apply in 2022 your 2020 GAMSAT is invalid.

 

[realmadrid000]

I read that too. It's not clear whether "in only two years" means Feb 2020 to Dec 2021, or Feb 2020 to Jan 2022.

If it is the latter, you can sit GAMSAT in 2020 but you won't be eligible to apply in 2021. And when you apply in 2022 your 2020 GAMSAT is invalid.

I am pretty sure its Jan-Nov 29 each year.

Also, don't GAMSAT scores last 2 years?

 

[chinaski]

Also, don't GAMSAT scores last 2 years?

Yes, inclusive of the year intake you sat. Ergo, if you sit GAMSAT in March 2020, it is not valid if you want to apply in 2022 for eventual 2023 entry.

 

[A1]

I am pretty sure its Jan-Nov 29 each year.

Have a look in this > https://www.mq.edu.au/about/about-t...cademic-year-plan/Academic_Year_Plan_2019.pdf

Sem 1&2 is from 25-Feb to 29-Nov. Sem 3 from Dec to ~25-Jan.

Is the course arranged in Y1 Sem 1-2-3 + Y2 Sem 1-2-3, or is Y2 Sem 3 not needed?

If Y2 Sem 3 is needed you will complete the degree in Jan 2022, thus not eligible to apply in 2021 (for 2022 intake). You won't save a year in elapsed time, only create a 2022 gap year.

 

[Mana]

1) Did you even read my post? You won't be able to do GAMSAT in first year, unless you plan to learn first year bio and chem at a faster pace than your already accelerated degree
2) Correct. Just like any degree
3) Did you even read Mana's post?

Edit: I just had a glance at the course structure and they don't have a single chemistry unit over the entire duration of the degree. Good luck with first year GAMSAT lmao realmadrid000

Nice find - actually, going by this, if you took the Clin Sci degree at MQ you would not have multiple prerequisites for the USyd Masters of Pharmacy - you would be missing not only the chemistry unit but also be missing statistics and calculus... so there's that plan gone.

 

[Cathay]

. Can do GAMSAT in first year uni and get into post-grad med very quickly and if done successfully be done in a total of 6 years.
. If I fail to get into medicine, a career in pharmacy can be done by completing an MPharm given i meet the GPA requirements

1) Doing GAMSAT during first year may not lead to the best outcome, considering they require equivalent of 1st year uni biology and chemistry - but they focus on problem solving and use of the prerequisite knowledge, which means if you sit GAMSAT while still studying 1st year bio/chem you likely won't be adequately prepared for it.

2) Not if the clin sci degree doesn't meet prerequisites of MPharm.

I'd say think about where your priorities are - if you would consider Pharm as a backup to grad entry med, would you consider going straight into pharmacy undergrad? Ditto engineering.

If not (and you insist on pursuing grad entry med), I would say look at 1) your local universities, and 2) universities in cities you wouldn't mind living in for a few years, and look at all the various programmes they offer (not just science ones) and the different majors. Also look inwards as well at yourself - is there a particular subject you really enjoyed at school and want to learn more (by enjoy I don't mean "good at it", I mean actual interest like you wanted to learn more beyond class), or a subject/area you didn't get to learn at school but wish you had the opportunity to learn? Then for each thing you might be interested in, do some digging around employability etc. I must emphasise that the ideal undergrad degree to do for post-grad entry is in something you're interested in, AND leads to viable career options by itself should post-grad entry not work out; in other words, you're looking for a degree on its own merits, as though you're not doing medicine afterwards.

If your degree of choice requires further study either way to lead to any viable career options, then I would suggest maybe that's not the best option - you never know, at the end of a 3 year degree, if you don't get medicine you might not feel like going off and studying for another x number of years, you might feel like going into the workforce and having time away from studying. People change over time, and just because medicine is all you want to do right now doesn't mean it will be all you want to do in 2-3 years' time, let alone in 5-10 years.

If you can't identify a clear winner, there may also be merit in starting a generic BSc with a range of papers (biology, chemistry, physics to start with) at your local uni, and seeing where life takes you - you might stumble upon something you really want to do while at uni. It's not uncommon for people to go to uni and rediscover themselves.

 

[realmadrid000]

Nice find - actually, going by this, if you took the Clin Sci degree at MQ you would not have multiple prerequisites for the USyd Masters of Pharmacy - you would be missing not only the chemistry unit but also be missing statistics and calculus... so there's that plan gone.

I did not know that was the case, in that case, that idea is scratched.

1) Doing GAMSAT during first year may not lead to the best outcome, considering they require equivalent of 1st year uni biology and chemistry - but they focus on problem solving and use of the prerequisite knowledge, which means if you sit GAMSAT while still studying 1st year bio/chem you likely won't be adequately prepared for it.

2) Not if the clin sci degree doesn't meet prerequisites of MPharm.

I'd say think about where your priorities are - if you would consider Pharm as a backup to grad entry med, would you consider going straight into pharmacy undergrad? Ditto engineering.

If not (and you insist on pursuing grad entry med), I would say look at 1) your local universities, and 2) universities in cities you wouldn't mind living in for a few years, and look at all the various programmes they offer (not just science ones) and the different majors. Also look inwards as well at yourself - is there a particular subject you really enjoyed at school and want to learn more (by enjoy I don't mean "good at it", I mean actual interest like you wanted to learn more beyond class), or a subject/area you didn't get to learn at school but wish you had the opportunity to learn? Then for each thing you might be interested in, do some digging around employability etc. I must emphasise that the ideal undergrad degree to do for post-grad entry is in something you're interested in, AND leads to viable career options by itself should post-grad entry not work out; in other words, you're looking for a degree on its own merits, as though you're not doing medicine afterwards.

If your degree of choice requires further study either way to lead to any viable career options, then I would suggest maybe that's not the best option - you never know, at the end of a 3 year degree, if you don't get medicine you might not feel like going off and studying for another x number of years, you might feel like going into the workforce and having time away from studying. People change over time, and just because medicine is all you want to do right now doesn't mean it will be all you want to do in 2-3 years' time, let alone in 5-10 years.

If you can't identify a clear winner, there may also be merit in starting a generic BSc with a range of papers (biology, chemistry, physics to start with) at your local uni, and seeing where life takes you - you might stumble upon something you really want to do while at uni. It's not uncommon for people to go to uni and rediscover themselves.

Pharmacy is definitely a viable option, its second in employability after medicine I believe and I can enjoy the course. As you said, a 3 year degree in med sci or science will lead me back to sqaure one, people competitively fighting for a high GPA leaving me possibly with a lower GPA than I need and lowering me in the eyes of unis. Also, employability with those degrees will just ruin me.

I appreciate all the help guys.

If anyone else has thoughts please let me know.

 

[A1]

Pharmacy is definitely a viable option, its second in employability after medicine I believe

One in my family is a Pharmacist, I can tell you a little about this. Pharm graduates are required to do 1800 intern hours (working under a supervising Pharmacist) to get registration. They can do part-time/casual at multiple pharmacies to cumulate these hours, an option usually not available to other graduates like IT or engineers thus reflecting a higher rate of employment after graduation.

However that is little more than being a Sales assistant on minimum wage. After that phase getting full-time (or even half-time) employment as a registered Pharmacist is not as rosy.

 

[Crow]

If anyone else has thoughts please let me know.

I don’t simply want to repeat what others have said, however, it seems to me like you are possibly searching for someone to validate your choice to study the clinical science degree, despite the overwhelming reasons provided by everyone here not to. At the end of the day it’s your decision and nobody here can change that, but the replies speak for themselves I think.

 

[realmadrid000]

One in my family is a Pharmacist, I can tell you a little about this. Pharm graduates are required to do 1800 intern hours (working under a supervising Pharmacist) to get registration. They can do part-time/casual at multiple pharmacies to cumulate these hours, an option usually not available to other graduates like IT or engineers thus reflecting a higher rate of employment after graduation.

However that is little more than being a Sales assistant on minimum wage. After that phase getting full-time (or even half-time) employment as a registered Pharmacist is not as rosy.

Ah I see, I heard that full-time pharmacists do get paid really good pay on weekends? I enjoy the whole community aspect of pharmacy tbh so its an option

A1 adds: I just looked up this page > Welcome to the Fair Work Ombudsman website

I think it's only for Sundays, full-time gets 1.5x your hourly rate, locum/casual 1.75x.