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Common pitfalls to avoid for year 12 school leavers and other medicine applicants

Hi Mana,
Thanks for posting such a useful information. What is your advice for someone who has already fallen into pitfall#2?
In second year of Bachelor of Medical science at UNSW. WAM 81%. Really keen to get into medicine. UMAT scores have been around 149.

Would really appreciate your guidance.

Thanks,
Dev
 

DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
Hi Mana,
Thanks for posting such a useful information. What is your advice for someone who has already fallen into pitfall#2?
In second year of Bachelor of Medical science at UNSW. WAM 81%. Really keen to get into medicine. UMAT scores have been around 149.

Would really appreciate your guidance.

Thanks,
Dev

Given you’re almost at the end of second year, you kind of have three options:

1. Finish Med Sci and sit GAMSAT for graduate entry Med
2. Use your GPA to apply to JCU and/or Bond (no UMAT or GAMSAT)
3. Cut your Med Sci losses and start a new degree next year in a career path that you could see yourself working in long term in the (unfortunately likely, statistically speaking) event that you never get into medicine, towards the end of that degree; see point 1.

In your position, I think I’d be doing 1 and 2 for now (well, not Bond because I wouldn’t be able to afford it, but JCU).

How many times have you sat UMAT? You obviously remain eligible for non-standard entry but if you’ve done UMAT 3 times now (yr 12, 1st year uni, 2nd year uni) and your score has been consistent, then it might be time to move on from that route.

Also, are you a rural applicant?
 

Mana

there are no stupid questions, only people
Administrator
Hi Mana,
Thanks for posting such a useful information. What is your advice for someone who has already fallen into pitfall#2?
In second year of Bachelor of Medical science at UNSW. WAM 81%. Really keen to get into medicine. UMAT scores have been around 149.

Would really appreciate your guidance.

Thanks,
Dev

If you're in second year you should be sitting the GAMSAT this year already (i.e. a few days ago) assuming your Med Sci course is 3 years and that you would be on track to finishing it in three years. GAMSAT is valid for two years which is why you should be able to sit it.

Other than that, you're kind of stuck in a limbo position where it's probably a reasonable idea to at least finish your degree since you're pretty much 1 year off finishing it so you can get into some post-graduate study of some kind that would give you a career (noting that things like Masters degrees by coursework are usually a year faster than their undergraduate counterparts - e.g. a masters of law is usually a 2 year degree where a bachelor of law is 3) - basically whether you started a new bachelor's now or whether you finished this and then did a masters of the same course it would take the same time (i.e. three years from now).

The main difference between these would then be the hypothetical chance that you can get into medicine with a completed medical science degree - which of course is a higher chance the more positions you are able to apply for (i.e. if you finish the degree all the GAMSAT spots would be open for you to apply for).

For this reason I would highly suggest against not finishing your degree at this stage (I mean you're already 2 years into a 3 year course) - definitely finish it and lots of avenues for further study would be open to you - certainly much more than if you just cut your losses.

Of course, if you could go back in time and change your degree then that would be ideal (ha).

In any case, the advice as above is (if you don't get into medicine the first time you sit the GAMSAT) to choose a career pathway that you would be happy with in the very likely eventuality that you never get into medicine. I sure hope you've come up with one in the last two years.
 
Given you’re almost at the end of second year, you kind of have three options:

1. Finish Med Sci and sit GAMSAT for graduate entry Med
2. Use your GPA to apply to JCU and/or Bond (no UMAT or GAMSAT)
3. Cut your Med Sci losses and start a new degree next year in a career path that you could see yourself working in long term in the (unfortunately likely, statistically speaking) event that you never get into medicine, towards the end of that degree; see point 1.

In your position, I think I’d be doing 1 and 2 for now (well, not Bond because I wouldn’t be able to afford it, but JCU).

How many times have you sat UMAT? You obviously remain eligible for non-standard entry but if you’ve done UMAT 3 times now (yr 12, 1st year uni, 2nd year uni) and your score has been consistent, then it might be time to move on from that route.

Also, are you a rural applicant?

Thanks LMG. Your reply was really useful.

I agree that 1 and 2 are the best options at the moment. JCU degree is a 6 year one. Is that worth pursuing?
Sat UMAT 3 times (yr 12, 1st year uni, 2nd year uni) and scores have been consistent :-(
Not a rural applicant either.
 

Crow

Staff | Junior Doctor
Moderator
JCU degree is a 6 year one. Is that worth pursuing?
For you it would possibly be 5 years rather than 6, as JCU accepts advanced standing applications for those with a health science background. But for JCU it's important to note that:

- JCU considers GPA, rather than WAM, so you'd need to calculate your results and determine if you are competitive
- Being non-rural and non-standard arguably places you in the most competitive category for JCU, so it's very difficult to gain a place offer
- The written application plays a very important part in determining if you receive an interview - particularly as a non-rural applicant, as not only will you not receive the bonus points that rural students do, you'll also really need to convince JCU that you have a strong interest in rural/remote/Indigenous health, which I imagine might be hard to do if you come from Sydney! The written application is also due at the end of this month, and you really need to invest quality time into it if you want a chance of being interviewed.
- If you were successful in gaining a place offer, you'd mainly be going to university with students that are recently out of school and there may be a significant difference in age/maturity etc. Do you think you'd be fine with this? Of course some applicants would have no issues with this (I personally wouldn't), but something to consider nonetheless!

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do - if you haven't sat GAMSAT yet you should definitely give it a go, as some find it quite different to UMAT and graduate entry medicine might be a good option for you! :)
 
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If you're in second year you should be sitting the GAMSAT this year already (i.e. a few days ago) assuming your Med Sci course is 3 years and that you would be on track to finishing it in three years. GAMSAT is valid for two years which is why you should be able to sit it.

Other than that, you're kind of stuck in a limbo position where it's probably a reasonable idea to at least finish your degree since you're pretty much 1 year off finishing it so you can get into some post-graduate study of some kind that would give you a career (noting that things like Masters degrees by coursework are usually a year faster than their undergraduate counterparts - e.g. a masters of law is usually a 2 year degree where a bachelor of law is 3) - basically whether you started a new bachelor's now or whether you finished this and then did a masters of the same course it would take the same time (i.e. three years from now).

The main difference between these would then be the hypothetical chance that you can get into medicine with a completed medical science degree - which of course is a higher chance the more positions you are able to apply for (i.e. if you finish the degree all the GAMSAT spots would be open for you to apply for).

For this reason I would highly suggest against not finishing your degree at this stage (I mean you're already 2 years into a 3 year course) - definitely finish it and lots of avenues for further study would be open to you - certainly much more than if you just cut your losses.

Of course, if you could go back in time and change your degree then that would be ideal (ha).

In any case, the advice as above is (if you don't get into medicine the first time you sit the GAMSAT) to choose a career pathway that you would be happy with in the very likely eventuality that you never get into medicine. I sure hope you've come up with one in the last two years.

Thank you Mana for your kind advice.

A time machine would definitely help! :)

Not finishing degree at this stage is not an option. Though I am really surprised to learn that there is no real career path with Med Sci course. Should have done enough research before taking this up after 12 :-(

Cheers,
Dev
 

DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
Thanks LMG. Your reply was really useful.

I agree that 1 and 2 are the best options at the moment. JCU degree is a 6 year one. Is that worth pursuing?
Sat UMAT 3 times (yr 12, 1st year uni, 2nd year uni) and scores have been consistent :-(
Not a rural applicant either.

As Crow mentioned, JCU is 6 years but you may be eligible for advanced standing for at least part of first year, if not all of it. Secondly, given you still have a year of Med Sci to go before you’re Grad Med eligible, and Grad Med is 4 years, that’s a total of 5. So getting into JCU for next year would, at worst, be one year longer, and at best would be the same.

Other than that, I agree with @Crow’s analysis of what you’re up against being a non-standard, non-rural applicant from Sydney. It’s definitely worth an application, imo, but I probably wouldn’t be relying on it as a done deal. Grad Med is likely your best option.

Re. being older than the majority of your classmates: I’m in that position this year and it is an absolute non-factor for me, and my impression is that it’s a non-factor for my classmates, too. Definitely don’t let that put you off.
 

Caledu

Lurker
Regarding pitfall #2 at Monash specifically, would commencing a Science/Biomed double degree be advisable, given that I have a genuine interest in both areas? It does allow me to make progress on my backup career and at the same time lets me apply for one of the 50 reserved places. I also wouldn't mind doing a Science/Arts degree. Would that be better in terms of securing a backup job? I'm tossing up between these two options and am just trying to figure out a definitive goal to work towards during year 12 next year. Thanks in advance for any replies.
 

Crow

Staff | Junior Doctor
Moderator
Regarding pitfall #2 at Monash specifically, would commencing a Science/Biomed double degree be advisable, given that I have a genuine interest in both areas? It does allow me to make progress on my backup career and at the same time lets me apply for one of the 50 reserved places. I also wouldn't mind doing a Science/Arts degree. Would that be better in terms of securing a backup job? I'm tossing up between these two options and am just trying to figure out a definitive goal to work towards during year 12 next year. Thanks in advance for any replies.
Would you mind sharing what your back-up career is? I would assume biomed is not a prerequisite for this back up. IIRC less than 1/8 applicants going through the Monash biomed pathway gain a place in medicine there. Those are not good chances and in my opinion, are certainly not good enough to commit to doing a whole degree with limited employment prospects post-graduation. As a biomed graduate myself, I can assure you those 3+ years and financial investment would much better be spent building towards a solid alternative career path (keeping in mind you can be pursuing graduate entry medicine through the GAMSAT pathway while you do this).

Having a genuine interest in biomedical science does not make a pitfall any less of a pitfall - I loved my degree but by no means did this improve my employment prospects after graduation. I don't have much knowledge of Arts but I believe the employment prospects are similar to biomed.

Given you still have more than a year before you need to commit to any alternative degree, I'd advise you to focus on doing as well as possible in your final years. Thinking ahead is definitely a good thing, but it's also important to take things one step at a time.

If you indicate what you are currently considering as your alternative to medicine, someone here will be able to give you more specific advice.
 
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Mana

there are no stupid questions, only people
Administrator
Thanks for the quick reply. My backup is psychology and I'm also considering pharmacy and nursing.
So why Science/Biomed when any of those three are accessible as undergrad entry degrees?
 

Caledu

Lurker
Sorry, I have no idea how to quote, but that is actually a great question I haven't yet asked myself. I suppose the only reason is for the ones mentioned above, and looking back at it, they seem unreasonable given the investment, time and money-wise. I'll definitely steer clear of biomed now. Thank you for posting this; had it not been for this thread, I would've fallen into the trap of doing biomed for the sake of getting into med.
 

Ruffle

Puffle
Emeritus Staff
Sorry, I have no idea how to quote, but that is actually a great question I haven't yet asked myself. I suppose the only reason is for the ones mentioned above, and looking back at it, they seem unreasonable given the investment, time and money-wise. I'll definitely steer clear of biomed now. Thank you for posting this; had it not been for this thread, I would've fallen into the trap of doing biomed for the sake of getting into med.
To quote, you press "+Quote" then"Reply" at the bottom right of someone's post :)
(and yes, majoring in Psychology will definitely be better for getting a job as a psychologist than majoring in Biomed :p)
 

DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
To quote, you press "+Quote" then"Reply" at the bottom right of someone's post :)
(and yes, majoring in Psychology will definitely be better for getting a job as a psychologist than majoring in Biomed :p)

As a Psychologist, can confirm this is not only “better”, but essential :D

Caledu

Depending on the Uni, Psychology can be accessed via:
BA (major and hons in Psych)
BSc (major and hons in Psych)
BBehavSci (hons usually built in)
BPsych (hons usually built in)

ETA: can also vouch for the possibility of moving from Psych to Med. It’s no more or less likely than any other degree to get you there, but it can definitely get you there. And is a great back up career (I would not have been too sad if I’d not managed to get into Med).
 
Hi,

I am currently in high school and am considering doing medicine at USYD (DDMP) or UNSW (BMed, MD). My backup is space engineering at USYD. I feel like I am more interested in academic research and development, being "at the forefront of medical research", rather than becoming a physician per se. Would doing an MD be suitable for this? As I understand it, research and clinical exposure go hand-in-hand, and a proportion MD-holders end up pursuing a career in research?

Even if I do become a doctor, I think I would prefer a specialty with less patient interaction like radiology or pathology? The idea of researching "the cure for cancer" or some other cliche expressions is very appealing to me. I just want to be able to make an impact on the world and science, "be the next face of medicine" or whatever. On the other hand, if I can make myself enjoy being a surgeon/physician (which wouldn't impact the world as much I don't think), my motivations would be a stable-paying job and a respectable career. I am an extremely self-motivated person who will put 110% effort into anything I put my mind in excelling in. I am aiming for a 99.95 for the score itself, not just for the sake of USYD's DDMP. I am extremely passionate about biology, physics and chemistry too.

Regarding undergraduate med science, while I agree after reading Mana's post that it is not a smart decision if the sole purpose is for entry into graduate medicine, as the chances will be the same as any other bachelor's degree, I don't really understand how there is a "90% chance of not being employed in Medical Science-related fields at the end of their degree." Isn't this assuming that everyone who does medical science/biomed either ends up doing graduate medicine (10%) or not employed in medical science fields (90%), leaving 0% of people who are employed in medical science fields? How is this possible? Where do all of the people who pursue careers in scientific research come from? Also, wouldn't doing a medical science bachelor's degree help towards the medicine degree, since the content is somewhat similar, despite not giving any extra advantage for admissions?

If career prospects in biomedical/scientific research are so bad, does this mean that my dreams of being at the forefront of medical research are pretty much impossible, and I'll either have to do engineering or become a doctor/surgeon hoping that I will be able to enjoy it? I would definitely say I am a more scientifically inclined person. I'm only in year 10 and in three years time I might be a completely different person with a different personality, my interests may change, and be super passionate about being a surgeon, who knows.

(The reason why space engineering is my backup is because I'm interested in space. I was previously considering a commerce/law double degree at USYD in part because of the high ATAR cutoff which I know is stupid. I was also considering actuarial/commerce at UNSW, but have decided against working in the business world, in favour of something that would help society. TBH now that I think about it part of the reason I have space engineering as a backup is also because of the high ATAR cutoff)
 

DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
Hi,

I am currently in high school and am considering doing medicine at USYD (DDMP) or UNSW (BMed, MD). My backup is space engineering at USYD. I feel like I am more interested in academic research and development, being "at the forefront of medical research", rather than becoming a physician per se. Would doing an MD be suitable for this? As I understand it, research and clinical exposure go hand-in-hand, and a proportion MD-holders end up pursuing a career in research?

Even if I do become a doctor, I think I would prefer a specialty with less patient interaction like radiology or pathology? The idea of researching "the cure for cancer" or some other cliche expressions is very appealing to me. I just want to be able to make an impact on the world and science, "be the next face of medicine" or whatever. On the other hand, if I can make myself enjoy being a surgeon/physician (which wouldn't impact the world as much I don't think), my motivations would be a stable-paying job and a respectable career. I am an extremely self-motivated person who will put 110% effort into anything I put my mind in excelling in. I am aiming for a 99.95 for the score itself, not just for the sake of USYD's DDMP. I am extremely passionate about biology, physics and chemistry too.

Regarding undergraduate med science, while I agree after reading Mana's post that it is not a smart decision if the sole purpose is for entry into graduate medicine, as the chances will be the same as any other bachelor's degree, I don't really understand how there is a "90% chance of not being employed in Medical Science-related fields at the end of their degree." Isn't this assuming that everyone who does medical science/biomed either ends up doing graduate medicine (10%) or not employed in medical science fields (90%), leaving 0% of people who are employed in medical science fields? How is this possible? Where do all of the people who pursue careers in scientific research come from? Also, wouldn't doing a medical science bachelor's degree help towards the medicine degree, since the content is somewhat similar, despite not giving any extra advantage for admissions?

If career prospects in biomedical/scientific research are so bad, does this mean that my dreams of being at the forefront of medical research are pretty much impossible, and I'll either have to do engineering or become a doctor/surgeon hoping that I will be able to enjoy it? I would definitely say I am a more scientifically inclined person. I'm only in year 10 and in three years time I might be a completely different person with a different personality, my interests may change, and be super passionate about being a surgeon, who knows.

(The reason why space engineering is my backup is because I'm interested in space. I was previously considering a commerce/law double degree at USYD in part because of the high ATAR cutoff which I know is stupid. I was also considering actuarial/commerce at UNSW, but have decided against working in the business world, in favour of something that would help society. TBH now that I think about it part of the reason I have space engineering as a backup is also because of the high ATAR cutoff)

I didn’t write the stats so I’m not speaking to those specifically, but I can comment a bit on this topic.

If you do a 3 year BMedRes or BBioMed etc with the intention of moving straight from that into full time employment, then I don’t think it’s overstating it to say the success rate is 0%.

However, if you go into BMedRes or BBioMed with the plan of ending up in academia or research and understand the journey is much longer and much more complicated than your initial bachelor degree, then that’s a different kettle of fish. If you factor into your finances and plans that what you will actually need to do is bachelor + honours + masters &/or PhD at a minimum (so closer to 8 years of full time uni than the 3 initial bachelor years that people generally do for grad entry Med) then your career prospects, while still not set in stone, are certainly far more realistic.

As for whether MedSci etc is useful for switching to Med, content-wise, sure, there’s definitely SOME crossover. But there is MUCH more to medicine than medical science. There’s communication skills, public health, clinical skills, ethics, presentations, essays, etc, etc, etc. Those type of skills are more likely to be covered in undergrads that include, say, psychology, sociology, English, law, etc. My experience is that people tend to get very stuck on the idea that studying medicine is all about the medical science, but it’s absolutely not. Plus, with the exception of UoM, all Med degrees in Australia teach you from the start, so it’s absolutely not necessary to have a MedSci background to be successful. You just need to be flexible and ready to learn, regardless of your background.

ETA: I’m not even going to expand on the notion of choosing a career based on the ATAR required to get in because it sounds like you already understand how ridiculous that is :D
 
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Thanks for the reply. Would you say that doing an MD is helpful if I want to purse a career in academia/research? You can always do a PhD on top of the MD as well right. Would it be stupid to go through all of the steps of becoming a doctor (e.g. in radiology/pathology) (MD, internship, RMO, registrar , fellowship) to do research/academia? I would imagine there are people who do both research and are practicing physicians? I still feel like an MD is more prestigious than a bachelor then masters/PhD.
 

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DrDrLMG!

Resident Medical Officer
Administrator
Thanks for the reply. Would you say that doing an MD is helpful if I want to purse a career in academia/research? You can always do a PhD on top of the MD as well right. Would it be stupid to go through all of the steps of becoming a doctor (e.g. in radiology/pathology) (MD, internship, RMO, registrar , fellowship) to do research/academia? I would imagine there are people who do both research and are practicing physicians? I still feel like an MD is more prestigious than a bachelor then masters/PhD.

So now you’ve changed from preferencing high ATAR to preferencing perceived “more prestige” in deciding your career? I legit don’t know how to reply to that (nor am I going to bother), it is utterly irrelevant, imo.

Choose the study path that best leads to the career you’re most interested in at this stage, with the knowledge that you’re never locked into doing something forever if you change your mind.
 
I'm asking because in an interview if they asked what my motivations for doing medicine are, and I said to do research and help society, would they look at me like "why don't you do medical science/biomed instead?" The thing is I don't know if an MD would "best lead to lead to the career I am most interested in" vs a Bachelor then PhD in medical science or whatever. The reason why I said "prestige" is because it's a lot harder to get an MD not only because of the high ATAR cut off (and UCAT, WAM, GAMSAT) but because of the limited positions, compared to a PhD biomedical degree, right?
 

pi

Junior doctor
Emeritus Staff
I'm asking because in an interview if they asked what my motivations for doing medicine are, and I said to do research and help society, would they look at me like "why don't you do medical science/biomed instead?"

If you can ask that of yourself, then it's not a very strong reason for wanting to do medicine...

I think, based from your previous posts, that you need to do some serious thinking about what you want to do and why. If you're struggling to think of a reason, perhaps you're not ready for medicine at the moment (which is fine!).
 

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