JCU JCU Medicine: The Unofficial JCU Med Bible (Vol. 2)

[Rora]

Does anyone have experience/knowledge on the Honours option at JCU: Pros and Cons, duration,requirements and how/when you do u apply for it? Is it worth it for speciality training later on?

 

[alizah]

Hi guys, just had a few questions about semester 2 of first year med.
Will quiz 3 and 4 be online from now on?
Where do you guys reccomend in doing end-of-year placement?
Also, is it a good idea to start studying in the holidays (after some rest ofcouse)
What is the MSAT about?
Should we have a stethescope by the end of year 1?
What are some good ways to get ready for semester 2 of year 1?
*Important: does anyone have any exemplars on EH2 assessment, if so please lmk*
What are the assessments of sem 2?
What skills will we learn in for clinicals?

 

[Stapedius]

Does anyone have experience/knowledge on the Honours option at JCU: Pros and Cons, duration,requirements and how/when you do u apply for it? Is it worth it for speciality training later on?

Honours can be done in a few different ways, but the most common way students do it is overflow it on top of 5th and 6th year. In this case you need to apply to the honours committee at the end of 4th year with a research proposal with some support from a couple of supervisors, one of which has to be affiliated in some capacity with JCU. Generally 10-15 students will do honours across the three clinical sites as it is a pretty big commitment on top of 5th year which is infamously the most rigorous year with final exams. As a result, the honours committee will generally only accept you into the overflow program if you have good grades (I'm not sure exactly what the cutoff is, possible a distinction average). Other ways it can be done is over 6th year/internship or during a dedicated "honours year" where you take a leave of absence from formal studies. There are of course obvious pros and cons to each of these.

I would strongly advise you to seriously think about why you might want to do honours. If it's to "try and get onto specialty programs", then definitely don't bother, because it really won't do much for that and you might end up sacrificing your sanity, especially if you pick a topic you actually don't care too much about. The difference between an MBBS and an MBBS (Hons) is negligible in that regard, unless you get a publication out of it - but you can do that without doing honours. If you chat to anyone who has done honours or is doing it currently, it is a lot of bloody work, and you'll very quickly find you're left in the deep end when it comes to figuring things out. If you however have a topic you're really passionate about and have good time-management skills meaning you won't crash and burn in 5th year juggling honours with course content, then honours can be a good option to learn some basic research skills which can be helpful down the track.

Most of the benefit in my opinion is it gives you a taste of how research is conducted, links you in with some researchers from the CMD and (arguably less importantly) provides the opportunity for a publication if you're really diligent. Going through the ethics approval processes and the less glamorous side of research is painful, but a good lesson to learn early on if research is something you want to pursue down the track. I myself have had to self-teach myself statistics as part of data analysis which has been a lot of work, but in my opinion quite useful and worth it for my own professional development.

TLDR: only do honours if you have a good team of supervisors, have a topic you're genuinely interested in and have good time-management skills, otherwise you will really struggle. Doing honours alone does not give you the leg up on specialty training, however the skills in how to conduct and present research can be helpful, especially if it leads to future publications, although this should not be your primary motivator (and indeed, not all honours students do end up getting published anyway).

 

[Stapedius]

Hi guys, just had a few questions about semester 2 of first year med.
Will quiz 3 and 4 be online from now on?
Where do you guys reccomend in doing end-of-year placement?
Also, is it a good idea to start studying in the holidays (after some rest ofcouse)
What is the MSAT about?
Should we have a stethescope by the end of year 1?
What are some good ways to get ready for semester 2 of year 1?
*Important: does anyone have any exemplars on EH2 assessment, if so please lmk*
What are the assessments of sem 2?
What skills will we learn in for clinicals?

It's been a few years since I've been in first year, so I'll let someone else reply to most of this. I suspect some of your questions will be best answered by emailing the MBBS1 email address or chatting to 2nd year students though.

That being said, I will say that you definitely should not study in your holidays; particularly in preclinical years. Paradoxically you'll find as you get older that a lot of what you study (especially early on) in medical school is clinically useless down the track, and that it does wonders for your own wellbeing if you do utilise your university breaks when you have them. You'll find that once you start work those breaks are very quickly eaten up and you realise you probably should have enjoyed yourself a little bit more at medical school and got involved in things outside of study. You'll have plenty of time to study during the semester I assure you!

 

[Rora]

Honours can be done in a few different ways, but the most common way students do it is overflow it on top of 5th and 6th year. In this case you need to apply to the honours committee at the end of 4th year with a research proposal with some support from a couple of supervisors, one of which has to be affiliated in some capacity with JCU. Generally 10-15 students will do honours across the three clinical sites as it is a pretty big commitment on top of 5th year which is infamously the most rigorous year with final exams. As a result, the honours committee will generally only accept you into the overflow program if you have good grades (I'm not sure exactly what the cutoff is, possible a distinction average). Other ways it can be done is over 6th year/internship or during a dedicated "honours year" where you take a leave of absence from formal studies. There are of course obvious pros and cons to each of these.

I would strongly advise you to seriously think about why you might want to do honours. If it's to "try and get onto specialty programs", then definitely don't bother, because it really won't do much for that and you might end up sacrificing your sanity, especially if you pick a topic you actually don't care too much about. The difference between an MBBS and an MBBS (Hons) is negligible in that regard, unless you get a publication out of it - but you can do that without doing honours. If you chat to anyone who has done honours or is doing it currently, it is a lot of bloody work, and you'll very quickly find you're left in the deep end when it comes to figuring things out. If you however have a topic you're really passionate about and have good time-management skills meaning you won't crash and burn in 5th year juggling honours with course content, then honours can be a good option to learn some basic research skills which can be helpful down the track.

Most of the benefit in my opinion is it gives you a taste of how research is conducted, links you in with some researchers from the CMD and (arguably less importantly) provides the opportunity for a publication if you're really diligent. Going through the ethics approval processes and the less glamorous side of research is painful, but a good lesson to learn early on if research is something you want to pursue down the track. I myself have had to self-teach myself statistics as part of data analysis which has been a lot of work, but in my opinion quite useful and worth it for my own professional development.

TLDR: only do honours if you have a good team of supervisors, have a topic you're genuinely interested in and have good time-management skills, otherwise you will really struggle. Doing honours alone does not give you the leg up on specialty training, however the skills in how to conduct and present research can be helpful, especially if it leads to future publications, although this should not be your primary motivator (and indeed, not all honours students do end up getting published anyway).

Thanks for sharing your experience and for the advice.

 

[Dark Horse]

Hi guys, just had a few questions about semester 2 of first year med.
Will quiz 3 and 4 be online from now on?
Where do you guys reccomend in doing end-of-year placement?
Also, is it a good idea to start studying in the holidays (after some rest ofcouse)
What is the MSAT about?
Should we have a stethescope by the end of year 1?
What are some good ways to get ready for semester 2 of year 1?
*Important: does anyone have any exemplars on EH2 assessment, if so please lmk*
What are the assessments of sem 2?
What skills will we learn in for clinicals?

I'll second Stapedius here, it's been a couple of years since I was in first year myself - and apparently that's been long enough for them to re-structure the assessments so that the EH one is now sem 2 (it used to be in sem 1).

But from memory;

- Quiz 3 and 4 are now online hurdles.
- End of year placement, I did a JCU arranged one to avoid the paperwork hassle myself. But mainly, pick something you're interested in!
- Not a good idea to start studying in the holidays - just not worth it, especially in first year. In second year it doesn't hurt to go back over some of the clinical exams (eg how to do a cardiovascular physical examination), but definitely not essential either). Enjoy your holidays, rest up and there's plenty of time to study in sem 2.
- MSAT = multiple station assessment task. Basically you do like 8 different stations. Year 1 is a bit different in that some are static as not enough practical content has been covered yet. You'll be told a heap more about this in sem 2, don't worry about it.
- Don't need a stethoscope by the end of year 1. I got mine in the Christmas break between year 1 and 2. You will need one for year 2. Although I believe all of this is said in the subject outlines anyways.
- Honestly the best way to get ready for sem 2 is to relax and make sure that you come back recharged. Don't get too caught up in the study side of things. But I would recommend having a read of the subject outline a day or two before starting.
- Chat to some people in the older years, I'm sure they'll still have their EH1 papers. It is a research based task though where the topics change each year.
- Read the subject outline. It will have all the sem 2 assessments well outlined in there
- Again, this will be in the subject outline re clinical skills


Overall, just breathe and relax. If you're smart enough to get in, you're smart enough to get out, and making your whole life medicine won't really change that.

 

[Dark Horse]

Hey All!

To my 5th and 6th years out there (plus the recent graduates), anyone have any advice / thoughts on rotation order for MBBS6? Cheers

 

[Clewers01]

You are A-MA-ZING. I'm applying for JCU as a non-school leaver (rural, 7GPA) and I understand that they only take 15-20 students per year. In your experience, were the older students able to make friends compared to the younger cohort or were they kind of seen as "other" throughout your course? I'm super excited for the possibility but worried about being 25 among 18-year-olds. Thank you!!!!

 

[Stapedius]

You are A-MA-ZING. I'm applying for JCU as a non-school leaver (rural, 7GPA) and I understand that they only take 15-20 students per year. In your experience, were the older students able to make friends compared to the younger cohort or were they kind of seen as "other" throughout your course? I'm super excited for the possibility but worried about being 25 among 18-year-olds. Thank you!!!!

If you think 25 is old... then you will have a mighty fright on your geriatrics rotation my friend. But all jokes aside, there is a wide mix of students studying Medicine - everyone gets along pretty well. Yes, there naturally tends to be a group of the "mature aged students" who hang out together, but ultimately everyone integrates pretty well after a year or two, and certainly in the clinical years no-one really bats an eye as you're ultimately at the same level when it comes to clinical knowledge and competency. I have no doubt you will make friends!

 

[DrDrLMG!]

You are A-MA-ZING. I'm applying for JCU as a non-school leaver (rural, 7GPA) and I understand that they only take 15-20 students per year. In your experience, were the older students able to make friends compared to the younger cohort or were they kind of seen as "other" throughout your course? I'm super excited for the possibility but worried about being 25 among 18-year-olds. Thank you!!!!

I went to an undergrad uni with predominantly school leaver class mates as someone MUCH older than 25 and had a bloody fabulous time. Their energy was infectious and I’ve made some lasting friendships. It hasn’t been an issue at all!

Edit: this also goes for MSO! I’m much older than most of the people I’ve met through here, but some of those are also good friends now! Definitely not something to worry about!

 

[travellergirl]

Does anyone know what is happening with 6th year? I've heard rumours about JCU introducing exams to the final year because apparently they have been advised by the AMC that they have to change the program in the final year. Does anyone else think that the 6th year currently is unethical/exploitative in nature given that PGY1+2 and possibly PGY3 essentially prep you to take on a registrar role and the preinternship idea with the 6th yr is a bit outdated? Happy to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Does anyone know what is happening with 6th year? I've heard rumours about JCU introducing exams to the final year because apparently they have been advised by the AMC that they have to change the program in the final year. Does anyone else think that the 6th year currently is unethical/exploitative in nature given that PGY1+2 and possibly PGY3 essentially prep you to take on a registrar role and the preinternship idea with the 6th yr is a bit outdated? Happy to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter

I must admit, I once did a med school placement with a 6th year JCU student who was on elective. She explained how 6th year worked and I was definitely very dubious about its necessity (and so was she!).

 

[Y_S]

If you think 25 is old... then you will have a mighty fright on your geriatrics rotation my friend. But all jokes aside, there is a wide mix of students studying Medicine - everyone gets along pretty well. Yes, there naturally tends to be a group of the "mature aged students" who hang out together, but ultimately everyone integrates pretty well after a year or two, and certainly in the clinical years no-one really bats an eye as you're ultimately at the same level when it comes to clinical knowledge and competency. I have no doubt you will make friends!

I am middle-aged, and probably gonna be the oldest if I get it. I have applied for 2025 entry.

 

[A1]

Does anyone else think that the 6th year currently is unethical/exploitative in nature

Most undergrad med courses (or combined undergrad+MD) are 5-year comprising roughly 2.5y coursework + 2.5y clinical - JMP WSU Monash UTas Curtin.

JCU UNSW Adelaide are 6-year. UNSW includes a full-year Research project, I don't know what JCU & Adelaide do with the extra year.

The 5-year can be compressed into 4 extra-long years for graduate-entry MD comprising 2y coursework + 2y clinical. IMO it's a bit rushed, in fact at UWA where I studied they use 1/3rd of the 2nd year for clinical, making it 1.7y coursework + 2.3y clinical.

I wouldn't call the extra year unethical/exploitative though. Maybe just how their course was originally structured for AMC accreditation and they don't want to wholesale change it then resubmit to AMC. FYI teaching a med student costs the uni about $65K a year while they receive only $40K (student HECS $12K + gov funding $28K), so the extra year incurs more cost to the uni.

I am middle-aged, and probably gonna be the oldest if I get it. I have applied for 2025 entry.

Maybe so for a particular cohort.
Overall you'd only be a middling since Med Deans stats show the oldest graduates are sometimes 58-60yo

 

[Y_S]

Most undergrad med courses (or combined undergrad+MD) are 5-year comprising roughly 2.5y coursework + 2.5y clinical - JMP WSU Monash UTas Curtin.

JCU UNSW Adelaide are 6-year. UNSW includes a full-year Research project, I don't know what JCU & Adelaide do with the extra year.

The 5-year can be compressed into 4 extra-long years for graduate-entry MD comprising 2y coursework + 2y clinical. IMO it's a bit rushed, in fact at UWA where I studied they use 1/3rd of the 2nd year for clinical, making it 1.7y coursework + 2.3y clinical.

I wouldn't call the extra year unethical/exploitative though. Maybe just how their course was originally structured for AMC accreditation and they don't want to wholesale change it then resubmit to AMC. FYI teaching a med student costs the uni about $65K a year while they receive only $40K (student HECS $12K + gov funding $28K), so the extra year incurs more cost to the uni.



Maybe so for a particular cohort.
Overall you'd only be a middling since Med Deans stats show the oldest graduates are sometimes 58-60yo

Good to know I won't be alone!

 

[Stapedius]

Does anyone know what is happening with 6th year? I've heard rumours about JCU introducing exams to the final year because apparently they have been advised by the AMC that they have to change the program in the final year. Does anyone else think that the 6th year currently is unethical/exploitative in nature given that PGY1+2 and possibly PGY3 essentially prep you to take on a registrar role and the preinternship idea with the 6th yr is a bit outdated? Happy to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter

As someone who has been a part of the accreditation process this year, I can assure you 6th year is not going away any time soon. JCU tends to have (for some reason) a good wrap with hospitals as competent interns and the AMC seems to think 6th year might have something to do with that. As I approach graduating, I see both sides. On the one hand, it has been nice to have a year without formal exams looming over you, so I've been able to go to placement and actually get involved in things without dipping home at the earliest opportunity to study like 5th year (but still not feeling guilty to leave early if offered the chance as I know I'm not getting paid). This means you definitely get free time outside of some seriously painful written assignments to justify to the AMC why 6th year exists (which they should seriously drop). The 10 week 6th year elective we get also doubles as a little holiday which is nice, and provides a nice opportunity to conduct research for those that way inclined. However, one could easily argue what we're doing, especially on our 10 week rural placement is at the level of an intern (writing notes, assisting in ward rounds, assisting with seeing patients in ED), and therefore we should be paid accordingly and perhaps graduate at the end of 5th year.

I personally don't think the AMC structure of a 6th year course is really the issue - there's no new content delivered in 6th year, and that means no OSCEs nor exams. In a weird way, I actually feel I was more prepared for internship at the end of 5th year having prepped hard for finals, while 6th year I've perhaps enjoyed the "laid back" vibe a bit too much and all my obs/gyn, paeds knowledge etc. has slowly drained away...

We'll see what happens. Only 4 weeks until I'm done... absolutely crazy to think 6 years has gone by. I still remember posting on the UMAT forum way back in 2018 and DrDrLMG! replying with her verdict that JCU was my only option all those years ago... and I guess, as they say, the rest is history!

Edit: corrected your gender, sorry DrDrLMG! my bad!!

 

[DrDrLMG!]

We'll see what happens. Only 4 weeks until I'm done... absolutely crazy to think 6 years has gone by. I still remember posting on the UMAT forum way back in 2018 and DrDrLMG! replying with his verdict that JCU was my only option all those years ago... and I guess, as they say, the rest is history!

Her

Congratulations!!

 

[travellergirl]

As someone who has been a part of the accreditation process this year, I can assure you 6th year is not going away any time soon. JCU tends to have (for some reason) a good wrap with hospitals as competent interns and the AMC seems to think 6th year might have something to do with that. As I approach graduating, I see both sides. On the one hand, it has been nice to have a year without formal exams looming over you, so I've been able to go to placement and actually get involved in things without dipping home at the earliest opportunity to study like 5th year (but still not feeling guilty to leave early if offered the chance as I know I'm not getting paid). This means you definitely get free time outside of some seriously painful written assignments to justify to the AMC why 6th year exists (which they should seriously drop). The 10 week 6th year elective we get also doubles as a little holiday which is nice, and provides a nice opportunity to conduct research for those that way inclined. However, one could easily argue what we're doing, especially on our 10 week rural placement is at the level of an intern (writing notes, assisting in ward rounds, assisting with seeing patients in ED), and therefore we should be paid accordingly and perhaps graduate at the end of 5th year.

I personally don't think the AMC structure of a 6th year course is really the issue - there's no new content delivered in 6th year, and that means no OSCEs nor exams. In a weird way, I actually feel I was more prepared for internship at the end of 5th year having prepped hard for finals, while 6th year I've perhaps enjoyed the "laid back" vibe a bit too much and all my obs/gyn, paeds knowledge etc. has slowly drained away...

We'll see what happens. Only 4 weeks until I'm done... absolutely crazy to think 6 years has gone by. I still remember posting on the UMAT forum way back in 2018 and DrDrLMG! replying with her verdict that JCU was my only option all those years ago... and I guess, as they say, the rest is history!

Edit: corrected your gender, sorry DrDrLMG! my bad!!

I think it is a bit questionable that an extra year of uni is justified, whereby there is no formal teaching, through an opportunity to have free time and an elective (effectively holiday, that you pay for through hecs lol) and isn't the whole point of med school to be prepared to be a good intern? If, in your experience, you felt more prepared for internship after 5th year, how does that justify an extra year of medical school? I would be happy to be corrected about the structure of 6th year, if I've missed what goes on in that year. I get rural really gets you in gear for internship - maybe the AMC should reflect on how they could introduce a rural med component into junior doc years, if they see its value in improving the quality of doctors.

 

[Stapedius]

I think it is a bit questionable that an extra year of uni is justified, whereby there is no formal teaching, through an opportunity to have free time and an elective (effectively holiday, that you pay for through hecs lol) and isn't the whole point of med school to be prepared to be a good intern? If, in your experience, you felt more prepared for internship after 5th year, how does that justify an extra year of medical school? I would be happy to be corrected about the structure of 6th year, if I've missed what goes on in that year. I get rural really gets you in gear for internship - maybe the AMC should reflect on how they could introduce a rural med component into junior doc years, if they see its value in improving the quality of doctors.

I should have clarified that I felt more prepared from a content base at the end of fifth year. I have definitely refined a lot more clinical skills this year. As for your other comments, I think they're valid and I would probably actually support the removal of 6th year as it currently stands. I do think if they are to continue with it, they should introduce some more formal teaching (perhaps "ward call scenarios") or a dedicated research component (like UNSW for example) throughout the year rather than just default to what is essentially another $10k debt to our HECS and year of unpaid placement. I believe some of the changes made this year (for example giving opportunities for honours students to use their entire elective on data collection) makes me think they're loosely heading in this direction. But yes, I agree - JCU needs to really reflect on the utility of 6th year moving forward.

 

[A1]

maybe the AMC should reflect on how they could introduce a rural med component into junior doc years, if they see its value in improving the quality of doctors.

I don't think AMC has jurisdiction on that. AMC is a standards / accreditation authority for medical education and assessment. Once started working interns & junior docs' standards are regulated by the Medical Board / AHPRA registration.

IOW if rural medicine/placement is a required part of the AMC accreditation it needs to be completed before graduating.