Otago HSFY chat - archive

[greenglacier]

I'm pretty sure that for the school one, the unit of analysis was not a group. Yes, each school is a group of people, but for it to be an ecological study, you would need to have a unit of analysis of groups of schools.

For example, you would need to look in a city and record what proportion of schools were high decile and what proportion had vegetable gardens as one unit of analysis.

If you need further convincing, consider that for the schools study, the ecological fallacy would not be a problem. You would know that those schools with high decile were also the ones with vegetable gardens, because you would be collecting data from each school individually.

Possible explanations for an association must have been all of the above - I can't see any way around this!

For the confounding, it would have made the exposure seem less protective, as those receiving the vaccine would be more likely to get influenza.

 

[Deleted member 4350]

I would argue that, based on slide 23 of L15 Cross sectional+eco studies stating the measurement of ecological studies is "integral - apply equally to all members of group" ecological studies seems more plausible. The exposure (school decile) applies equally to all members of the group. Also slide 26: "For exposures affecting the whole population" - school decile certainly applies in this case. I agree with all your other points

 

[skyglow1]

I'm with Greenglacier here. An ecological study would be like comparing all schools in auckland with all schools in dunedin for average decile and vegetable garderness. I would've put cross-sectional.

 

[Public Liability]

Hang on, didn't the question ask about what's the relationship between average decile and vegetable gardens? As in finding measure of association, not frequency (as in prevalence with cross-sectional studies)?

I'm a little confused here. I put case-control studies for that one..

 

[skyglow1]

Cross-sectional studies can be used to look at relationships. It makes more sense to use a cross-sectional study here because you can measure exposure and outcome at the same time, so it will be simple to do.

 

[Public Liability]

...looks like the test was alot harder than I thought, oh and I'm not exactly sure what you mean

 

[greenglacier]

This is why I commented that the test was certainly fairer than the last one, but not necessarily easier.

Remember how in lectures, cross-sectional studies were referred to as being in a "grey area" between descriptive and analytical studies. Here it is quite possible to treat them as analytical - i.e. able to find an association (relationship).

If you need further convincing, ask yourself how you would perform a case-control study (as you propose). You would need to first identify cases and find controls - this would involve asking randomly selected schools if they have a vegetable garden. Given that you would easily be able to find decile status at the same time, you'd in fact be doing a cross-sectional study with the same outcome in attempting to collect data for a case-control study.

A cross-sectional study hence seems far more appropriate.

 

[lock_on]

lol i put cross sectional after much deliberation instead of ecological. a school can either have a vege garden or not have one...dont see how u can plot that on a graph to see a relationship.

 

[skyglow1]

The term relationship is synonymous with association, and remember we use measures of association, which are simply numbers i.e. there's no need to plot a graph. I don't know what the exact question was, but you could do something like schools with vegetable gardens (outcome+) were 2 times as like to be in a higher decile (exposure+) than schools without vegetable gardens (outcome-). The data could be obtained from a cross-sectional study.

 

[Deleted member 4350]

Good to see some MSO faces at today's Med meeting (greenglacier, docca.emb and pete (y) )

 

[SASOL]

Oops forgot to go. How was it? Put anyone off med? haha

 

[Deleted member 4350]

Quote of the day: "The purpose of the MB ChB degree is to make you eligible to sit more exams"
(or something along those lines)

They went on about how time-consuming the career is and how some specialities have a 40% pass rate for their 2nd year exams. *cough* surgery *cough*
It was really interesting though, I found. Apart from that kid who wouldn't stop taking the mic off her mum. lol

UMAT 2moro!

 

[docca.emb]

and "always have cake in your bag.."

I'm not sure about you guys but I walked out of there a little intimidated eh.. But I know that this is what I want. Probably should just take it one step at a time, no point looking too far ahead.

yea UMAT tomorrow.. and I accidently heard it will be released at 10.00am. Wish I hadn't heard that though. Sorry if I just ruined everyone's night, I know it has for me. Can't seem to settle down and work

 

[lambchops]

I'm so glad that UMAT results are valid for two years and that competitive graduates only need to meet the 25th percentile threshold haha.

Heard from a few mates it can get pretty intense for the HSFY's on the day results are released. Also heard about tears here and there. Hopefully tears of joy for you guys. All the best for tomorrow!

 

[SASOL]

Hmmm I'm not too worried about UMAT, mainly cos I don't know if I really have a chance at getting into med anymore.

 

[greenglacier]

Yeah, that talk could have easily put some people off med eh? Thankfully I had already had the same talk from my mother - to quote her "if you want to do medicine that's great and I can't imagine any better career, but you have to be in the position that you honestly cannot see yourself doing anything else with your life", otherwise I would have found it absolutely intense.

I can say though that from the example of my parents that eventually it is quite possible to have a very balanced lifestyle in medicine. As an example I have been playing in the Christchurch doctors orchestra with my parents for the last 6 years and some people there definately have the balance.

As another matter - I just heard a rumour that BIOC marks might be released this evening... Maybe a nice little prelude to UMAT results?...

 

[SASOL]

Hmmm hopefully they are out tonight, lovely surprise haha. It should be soon since HUBS was out pretty quick. I know lots of people who didn't realise that for med you need to specialise, you can't be a house surgeon for the rest of your life can you? I heard they had a power point up about the path after graduating from otago, people said they didn't realise it was so long...duh, I mean what do they expect really.

 

[lambchops]

Yeah, that talk could have easily put some people off med eh? Thankfully I had already had the same talk from my mother - to quote her "if you want to do medicine that's great and I can't imagine any better career, but you have to be in the position that you honestly cannot see yourself doing anything else with your life", otherwise I would have found it absolutely intense.

May I ask what some of the main points that may put people off med were?

I've spent the past ~3 years thinking about whether medicine is what I want to do, talking to a wide range of people etc. I'd say I'm very certain that it is the path I want to take, but I can't say I'm 100% sure at this point in time.

I honestly can't picture myself doing anything else but a mate of mine said maybe that's because I'm just not aware of all the different options out there.

 

[SASOL]

From what I've heard, some of the main factors are being able to travel and take time off, having families, moving around, the time it takes to become a consultant, the fact you have to keep learning for your whole career, what if you don't like it, long hours, exams after med school, the money it costs, even some people have told me the fact they could have a massive student loan etc. Personally I have thought all these things through, and I see med as all I want to do. I have spent hours reading pros and cons of med, but I think many people have only just skimmed the surface. Some people I know don't really want to do it, but their parents are pushing them and some want the respect etc.....which i think is really unfair to those who genuinely want to get in, but med is not about respect or money at all

 

[greenglacier]

You'd probably be better off hearing this from a med student (or even better a graduate), but basically the talk covered stuff like how an MBChB "is just a certificate that entitles you to sit exams", and how training is another 7 years after that minimum, that can seriously screw with your lifestyle. You have to pretty much hold a full-time job then study as much as you currently do at uni in the evenings after you get home so that you can pass some seriously hard exams (they told us about one with a 40% pass mark - we're talking med students here - students failing exams after getting straight A+'s at uni). Not to mention the fact you are moving between hospitals and cities, and may have to spend some time overseas, while trying to start a family (and work this all around the needs of your partner).

Essentially, it's a lot to put yourself through...