[2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places

[Crow]

This brings up another point. JMP/Monash is around 2.5yr BMed + 2.5yr MD, can they argue with the government their BMP debt is only 2.5 years of study?

The government is also subsidising the first 2.5 years and unlike the MD at Griffith or UWA, the MD at those unis isn’t a standalone medicine degree (they need the BMed) so I don’t think this could be argued.

 

[A1]

All else being equal, can I have your thoughts on which you would choose between 7-year unbonded provisional offer vs 5-year bonded (with 3 years RoS).

No need to go to great length, I just like to see if there is a clear leaning to one or the other.

 

[ucatboy]

All else being equal, can I have your thoughts on which you would choose between 7-year unbonded provisional offer vs 5-year bonded (with 3 years RoS).

No need to go to great length, I just like to see if there is a clear leaning to one or the other.

Looking at it from a purely financial perspective:

For the purposes of this analysis I'm gonna assume both offers come from somewhere interstate (SA has no 5/7-year course) hence the 20k/year living expenses (not that it really matters because it's the same for both pathways).

7-year unbonded provisional
After year 7, you've spent:

• 70k on school fees
• ~140k in living expenses

You're now 210k down the drain and your post-grad medicine journey is only starting

5-year bonded
After year 7, you've spent

• 50k on school fees (5 years of school as opposed to 7)
• ~140k in living expenses

You've also earned PGY1 and PGY2's worth of pay (which comes to roughly 140k according to this site). Now spend that 140k to pay off your bonded obligations (approximately 125k) to bring yourself more in-line with the 7-year unbonded provisional pathway. This leaves you with 15k left over from your two years' salary.

You're now 50+140-15=175k down the drain and two years into your post-grad medicine journey.

Looking at it this way, not only do you end up in a better financial position after taking the 5-year bonded (175k deficit vs 210k deficit) but you've also progressed further into your medical career by two years. Doesn't that mean you should always take the 5-year bonded option then?

 

[DrDrLMG!]

All else being equal, can I have your thoughts on which you would choose between 7-year unbonded provisional offer vs 5-year bonded (with 3 years RoS).

No need to go to great length, I just like to see if there is a clear leaning to one or the other.

Given equal cost of accommodation, location, availability of 7 yr provisional degree to a non-standard applicant, etc, I’d definitely go the 5 year degree plus BMP.

The two years less of HECS debt and fact I’d be earning a salary two years earlier would be enough to off-set the one year difference between the two for me.

ETA: I wouldn’t buy my way out of the BMP so would be financially even further ahead than the above calculations.

 

[ucatboy]

Given equal cost of accommodation, location, availability of 7 yr provisional degree to a non-standard applicant, etc, I’d definitely go the 5 year degree plus BMP.

The two years less of HECS debt and fact I’d be earning a salary two years earlier would be enough to off-set the one year difference between the two for me.

ETA: I wouldn’t buy my way out of the BMP so would be financially even further ahead than the above calculations.

I was basically trying to illustrate the point that even if you DO buy your way out of the BMP, you would STILL be ahead financially and career-wise. So there's not a single instance where it would be better to take the 7-year provisional over the 5-year bonded.

Fulfill the BMP contract = better than 7-year provisional
Don't fulfill the BMP contract = still better than 7-year provisional

 

[DrDrLMG!]

I was basically trying to illustrate the point that even if you DO buy your way out of the BMP, you would STILL be ahead financially and career-wise. So there's not a single instance where it would be better to take the 7-year provisional over the 5-year bonded.

Fulfill the BMP contract = better than 7-year provisional
Don't fulfill the BMP contract = still better than 7-year provisional

I feel like A1 was wanting personal reflections rather than blanket ‘everyone should do this’ type responses. More than just finances would weigh into things for some people, such as the opportunity to study something else, no desire to work or live in rural locations, and possibly having less interruption to career progression for a few examples. While those last two things can be addressed by buying out the contract, it may also be a factor that some people wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that given the point of the BMP program.

 

[A1]

Thanks for the replies so far. I have not seen included the factor that serving the RoS may impede on your career progression, is it a true concern?

 

[Sherlock]

Thanks for the replies so far. I have not seen included the factor that serving the RoS may impede on your career progression, is it a true concern?

I guess it would depend on the intention of a student. Would it really, if they intend to serve rurally?

 

[A1]

I guess it would depend on the intention of a student. Would it really, if they intend to serve rurally?

Let's go with the assumption they would work rurally only to serve out the 3-year RoS, not for any other reasons.

 

[Sherlock]

Let's go with the assumption they would work rurally only to serve out the 3-year RoS, not for any other reasons.

Then my assumption would be all the factors outlined by LMG! above come into play in decision-making more than anything. RoS impeding career progression when you're still working, that too only for 3 years albeit in a rural area probably wouldn't have a major impact on a career that will probably expand out for a long time, but you'd have to ask someone with expertise (chinaski perhaps?)

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Let's go with the assumption they would work rurally only to serve out the 3-year RoS, not for any other reasons.

I’ve not got a BMP myself so haven’t looked specifically, but feel like I’ve read here at MSO previously that, depending on where it’s factored in, the ROS can have a (slight?) impact on career progression? Happy (very, in fact!) to be corrected!

 

[chinaski]

You've also earned PGY1 and PGY2's worth of pay (which comes to roughly 140k according to this site). Now spend that 140k to pay off your bonded obligations (approximately 125k) to bring yourself more in-line with the 7-year unbonded provisional pathway. This leaves you with 15k left over from your two years' salary.

Yeah, because nobody actually uses their salary to pay for things like taxes, rent, bills, food, clothes, transport....

 

[ucatboy]

Yeah, because nobody actually uses their salary to pay for things like taxes, rent, bills, food, clothes, transport....

I'm only directly comparing 5-year-bonded and 7-year-unbonded. Take either one and you're going to be in a bit of a financial pickle regardless. The way I see it, spending years 6 and 7 in medical school wouldn't be any better - not only do you not get paid for doing so, you STILL have to spend money on rent, bills, food, clothes, transport etc. At least with 5-year bonded you'll be two years ahead career-wise.

 

[chinaski]

I'm only directly comparing 5-year-bonded and 7-year-unbonded. Take either one and you're going to be in a bit of a financial pickle regardless. The way I see it, spending years 6 and 7 in medical school wouldn't be any better - not only do you not get paid for doing so, you STILL have to spend money on rent, bills, food, clothes, transport etc. At least with 5-year bonded you'll be two years ahead career-wise.

Yep, but your number crunching just didn't add up, regardless. It's ludicrous to suggest people can just squirrel away 100% of their gross income for two years (while they presumably live on fresh air) and then pay off a penalty with a lump sum. Given that there are school kids reading here for advice, it's good to inject a little reality into what it means to take on a large debt.

 

[TKAO]

Would it be very impactful if you as an intern (PGY1) decided to do 1 year of your bonded obligations then try and do the rest later? Is the general consensus that doing it earlier is better or would it be better to postpone it until you have your fellowship where you are established and jumped through all the hoops before doing it and then coming back? Another thing on my mind, does fifo count as doing bonded obligations?

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Another thing on my mind, does fifo count as doing bonded obligations?

You read my mind. I was coming here to ask the exact same question.

 

[chinaski]

You're not really "established" until you get a job as a consultant. Essentially if you're looking at repaying time at that level, you are also potentially affecting your early career as a consultant. You'd need to check the rules RE FIFO work - my guess is that it wouldn't count as they'd ideally be wanting continuous service, not someone who repays time by the session.

 

[Totolier]

This isn't a simple problem. You have to factor in LIFE. For example, if you want to start a family, or continue a relationship, sometimes paying off a bonded place is better. Yes, although you might earn 140k within the first two years, you'll lose a large portion of that to tax. Additionally, people at that age might be required to live by themselves (ie not use parents money). Thus, that 140k can dissapear quite quickly. IMO, i think it would be wise to comple 1, maybe 2 years max and pay off the rest of the portion. This allows you to take a bonded place without the massive burden, additionally, the pay off won't be as bad and you can still progress your career without the financial burden

 

[A1]

Would it be very impactful if you as an intern (PGY1) decided to do 1 year of your bonded obligations then try and do the rest later? Is the general consensus that doing it earlier is better or would it be better to postpone it until you have your fellowship where you are established and jumped through all the hoops before doing it and then coming back? Another thing on my mind, does fifo count as doing bonded obligations?

You are given 18 years from graduation to complete the 3-year RoS. Only up to 1.5 years can be pre-fellowship the rest must be post-fellowship (unless you haven't got fellowship after the 12th year) which means you can split into multiple short periods.

And FIFO is acceptable > https://www1.health.gov.au/internet...1B/$File/2020 - New Applicant Information.pdf

"Summary of BMP Scheme key features

Return of Service Obligations (RoSO)
- 3 years RoSO
- Eligible locations for bonded participants are classified using any of the following: ....
- RoSO may be non-continuous, full time or part-time or fly in/fly out work

Timeframes
- completion of all RoSO within 18 years from completion of the medical course
- 18 months RoSO can be worked pre-fellowship
- if fellowship is not attained by the end of the 12th year after completion of the medical course, all RoSO must be completed within the remaining 6 years of the 18 year timeframe."

I read that as potentially you can wait until the 12th-15th year after graduation to give notice of breaching. By then you should be a half-millionaire and repaying 125K plus interest isn't so tough.

 

[chinaski]

I read that as potentially you can wait until the 12th-15th year after graduation to give notice of breaching. By then you should be a half-millionaire and repaying 125K plus interest isn't so tough.

I'm at that stage of my career now, and I would find it really undesirable to have that additional debt - it would be more than just a pesky frippery to deal with.