[2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places

[Crow]

Apologies for my ignorance. I think you summed it quite well. I wasn't aware that CSPs and BMPs could/might be treated differently. Is this true?

What do you mean by “treated differently”? By who?

 

[Advice Needed]

I mean, it's pretty clear cut - you either fulfill your ROS or you cough up the cash. As for where you'd place BMPs on your preferences (some unis such as Adelaide and Monash have separate course codes for CSPs and BMPs), that's entirely at your discretion.

Apologies for my ignorance. I think you summed it quite well. I wasn't aware that CSPs and BMPs could/might be treated differently. Is this true?

What do you mean by “treated differently”? By who?

Apologies, I mean the separate course codes for CSPs and BMPs.

 

[Crow]

Apologies, I mean the separate course codes for CSPs and BMPs.

I still don’t know what you mean. Are you saying you didn’t realise some unis separate the course codes for CSP and BMP? I think UQ, Monash and Adelaide are the only few that do that (but happy to be corrected here).

 

[DrDrLMG!]

I still don’t know what you mean. Are you saying you didn’t realise some unis separate the course codes for CSP and BMP? I think UQ, Monash and Adelaide are the only few that do that (but happy to be corrected here).

In news that will surprise no one: for 2017 entry UTAS had them separated. For 2018, they did not. I know this because I applied both years. For 2019 they went back to separate as we had someone here who only got a BMP despite their very high scores because they accidentally didn’t select CSP.

Who knows what they’ve done this year!

 

[Advice Needed]

I still don’t know what you mean. Are you saying you didn’t realise some unis separate the course codes for CSP and BMP? I think UQ, Monash and Adelaide are the only few that do that (but happy to be corrected here).

Yes, I didn't know that some unis separate the course codes for CSP and BMP.

 

[chinaski]

Yes, I didn't know that some unis separate the course codes for CSP and BMP.

This would be for administrative reasons, not in order to treat students differently. The BMPs aren't made to sit in separate lecture theatres and the like.

 

[Misa]

If you are unsure just opt in for now. If when you receive a bonded offer and at that stage don't want it you can decline (and make someone really happy to inherit it).

Or you can go through with the degree then not serve the Return of service. Penalty for that is you pay back the gov subsidy for your med course. About $25k times 5 years of study = $125K, only a third compared to Bond and you will have worked a few years to save up to pay.

If you can afford it honestly that doesn’t sound like a bad deal a place in med for 25k a year which you only have to pay when you finish your degree so there’s time to make atleast some of the money

 

[Crow]

If you can afford it honestly that doesn’t sound like a bad deal a place in med for 25k a year which you only have to pay when you finish your degree so there’s time to make atleast some of the money

This is my viewpoint on this (which I actually feel pretty strongly about): [2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places

I suggest anyone considering this to think about it from a different perspective.

 

[CristinaYang]

If you can afford it honestly that doesn’t sound like a bad deal a place in med for 25k a year which you only have to pay when you finish your degree so there’s time to make atleast some of the money

This completely defeats the purpose though especially considering how it’s supposed to minimise the oversaturation of doctors in metro areas.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

This completely defeats the purpose though especially considering how it’s supposed to minimise the oversaturation of doctors in metro areas.

Actually, it’s supposed to address the shortage of doctors in rural and remote regions.

The (no doubt minimal) effect it has on metro areas is just a by-product.

 

[chinaski]

If you can afford it honestly that doesn’t sound like a bad deal a place in med for 25k a year which you only have to pay when you finish your degree so there’s time to make atleast some of the money

Sounds like a way to make a financial rod for your own back. You don't make a mint as a JMO (saving that amount would take a long time) and taking out a loan at that point in your life should be for things to get ahead in life (eg a mortgage) rather than paying off a government penalty. This would be one way of putting yourself on the financial back foot - unless you've got the Bank of Mum and Dad to fall back on, one shouldn't be speaking so blithely about the prospect of paying off such a huge penalty!

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Yep sorry that’s where I was going but I kinda lost my train of thought there. How do they (the government) know that BMPs will be effective in the long term? Like after the ROS is up does the government just assume that those doctors might decide to work rurally?

I think the general consensus is that they don’t know for absolute sure but they’re hoping? I’ve not been around the system long enough to know how it has played out to date (and don’t have a BMP myself so haven’t actually looked too much into it, I’m afraid). chinaski would probably be able to best speak to this.

That said, it’s not the only scheme in place hoping to increase the rural workforce, increased participation by rural students (as achieved by quotas) and the John Flynn Placement Program also operate on the notion that rural exposure increases the likelihood that people will practice rurally. Also, I'm not sure about other universities, but UTAS has a pretty strong focus on rural practice. We've done 'rural week' in both first and second year where we do placements in rural locations, and I think we do so again next year, and there are assignments and research items that need to be completed in conjunction with these, as well as formal teaching, that informs students about rural practice.

ETA: I'm going to have a quick google search and then get back to you

 

[CristinaYang]

In news that will surprise no one: for 2017 entry UTAS had them separated. For 2018, they did not. I know this because I applied both years. For 2019 they went back to separate as we had someone here who only got a BMP despite their very high scores because they accidentally didn’t select CSP.

Who knows what they’ve done this year!

I’m abt 80% sure when I started my UTAS application there were two course code options CSP & BMP but then before Sep 30th it became one option. Anyways I only applied for the one in the end and I checked a couple of times so yeah pretty sure.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

I’m abt 80% sure when I started my UTAS application there were two course code options CSP & BMP but then before Sep 30th it became one option. Anyways I only applied for the one in the end and I checked a couple of times so yeah pretty sure.

So I typed 'impact of bonded medical places on Australian rural workforce' into google and got this MSO forum page as the response

 

[chinaski]

I think the general consensus is that they don’t know for absolute sure but they’re hoping? I’ve not been around the system long enough to know how it has played out to date (and don’t have a BMP myself so haven’t actually looked too much into it, I’m afraid). chinaski would probably be able to best speak to this.

Most of the data underpinning this is based on the fact that medical students with rural backgrounds or experience tend to express a desire to practice rurally, moreso than urban colleagues. Take note, that there isn't hard evidence to show that a *desire* to work rurally actually practically translates into more people working rurally.

Anecdotally, I have seen very little evidence of any bonded schemes making a whit of difference to rural workforces, and that's really not so surprising because the pros and cons of working in regional areas are very much universal (ie the cons affect people with rural backgrounds too!). The issue of workforce maldistribution and service provision is complex and it's not going to be fixed by a simple notion like a bond. Similarly, provision of massive financial incentives for doctors to shift into under-resourced areas hasn't worked, either.

 

[A1]

You're also (a) breaching a contract you signed in good faith

The contract itself has a provision on breaching
"If You breach the Agreement after completion of Your Medical Course but prior to having completed Your Return of Service Period then You will be required to repay the amounts the Commonwealth has paid the University for Your Bonded Medical Place plus Interest as a debt due to the Commonwealth."

thus after repaying you have complied with the contract you signed in good faith.

See clause 5.6 > https://www1.health.gov.au/internet...CFE8D/$File/Sample Deed of Agreement 2019.pdf

 

[garmonbozia]

The contract itself has a provision on breaching
"If You breach the Agreement after completion of Your Medical Course but prior to having completed Your Return of Service Period then You will be required to repay the amounts the Commonwealth has paid the University for Your Bonded Medical Place plus Interest as a debt due to the Commonwealth."

thus after repaying you have complied with the contract you signed in good faith.

See clause 5.6 > https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/6B5C46289ECA3D51CA257EF9000CFE8D/$File/Sample Deed of Agreement 2019.pdf

Good to know, thanks A1.

 

[TKAO]

The contract itself has a provision on breaching
"If You breach the Agreement after completion of Your Medical Course but prior to having completed Your Return of Service Period then You will be required to repay the amounts the Commonwealth has paid the University for Your Bonded Medical Place plus Interest as a debt due to the Commonwealth."

thus after repaying you have complied with the contract you signed in good faith.

See clause 5.6 > https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/6B5C46289ECA3D51CA257EF9000CFE8D/$File/Sample Deed of Agreement 2019.pdf

What do you think the interest rate is like on the so-called debt? That could turn the tables a lot more than they have been already.

 

[A1]

What do you think the interest rate is like on the so-called debt? That could turn the tables a lot more than they have been already.

HECS debt is increased by the official inflation rate, if we call that interest then it's probably the same for BMP debt.

 

[ucatboy]

A question I've been meaning to ask for a long time but keep forgetting:

On SATAC I've preferenced 1. Adelaide CSP, 2. Flinders, 3. Adelaide BMP, understandably so because the BMP ROS does seem quite inhibiting.

That being said, I've heard numerous reports of Adelaide BMPs being upgraded to CSPs down the road. If I initially qualified for an Adelaide BMP but not CSP, I would get my second pref, Flinders. That's great and all, but I would essentially be locked out of Adelaide and a CSP upgrade possibility.

If I instead preference 1. UAdel CSP and 2. UAdel BMP, and get chosen for a BMP first-round, my question is, will I essentially be guaranteed an upgrade? In other words, will ~35 interstate students/any student for that matter reject their CSP offers, meaning my upgrade is inevitable? Doesn't seem that out of the ordinary in my opinion - surely some Victorian or NSW students, upon receiving a home state offer, will reject their Adelaide one? It seems too good to be true i.e. qualifying for a first-round BMP will inevitably lead to a CSP. Hopefully that makes sense.