Auckland OLY1 chat - archive

[synapse]

You always have a chance as long as you make it into the interview. But lets say you're not really expecting to get auto-entry from the interview. You would probably want 8.5 to have a good chance of getting into med. 8.75 + a decent interview would almost definitly get you in, I think.

Yes, I would estimate that the median for my class now is somewhere between 8.0 and 8.5

@1st years
Please note that even though interviews are only officially 25% towards your overall competitiveness, they are more influential than that due to the grading system. For interview, excluding auto in and auto out, you can only get either A or B or C, which translate to a GPA of 8, 5, 2 respectively. It is not possible to get a grade somewhere in between. If you do the maths, then you will understand why having an 'average' GPA (like a 8.25 or something)+ good interview (A grade) is much better than having brilliant GPA (9.0) + poor interview (C grade)

 

[toaster]

Yes, I would estimate that the median for my class now is somewhere between 8.0 and 8.5

@1st years
Please note that even though interviews are only officially 25% towards your overall competitiveness, they are more influential than that due to the grading system. For interview, excluding auto in and auto out, you can only get either A or B or C, which translate to a GPA of 8, 5, 2 respectively. It is not possible to get a grade somewhere in between. If you do the maths, then you will understand why having an 'average' GPA + good interview (A grade) is much better than having brilliant GPA (9.0) + poor interview (C grade)

From what I have heard they used a new system this year, with a 1-10 scale. I heard this from rejected med-hopefuls contacting the faculty and asking for their interview marks. So this may represent more of a shift to academic grades. But I wouldn't rely on it. You really have to be good allround.

 

[synapse]

From what I have heard they used a new system this year, with a 1-10 scale. I heard this from rejected med-hopefuls contacting the faculty and asking for their interview marks. So this may represent more of a shift to academic grades. But I wouldn't rely on it. You really have to be good allround.

Yea i guess your right. With the possibility of auto-out, I wouldn't bank on great GPA alone!

 

[Leafie]

Oh the pressure...sigh...
On the bright side, we don't have BIO107 lectures next week yay!

 

[McNerdy]

Sorry to be anal, but it isn't post-graduate entry, but graduate entry. Graduate entry require that you already have a degree which is not, or not equivalent, to the undergraduate medical degree. Post-graduate entry would imply that the candidate already has a medical degree (e.g. the College Exams are considered postgraduate exams.)

Yeah that is pretty anal especially when you're kinda teaching me to suck eggs. I know the difference, as does everyone else. Such is the nature of idiom.

Auckland uni uses 3 factors for selection. The most important of which is academic history. It has been proven by various British studies (according to Prof Des Gorman, Head of Auckland Uni Med School), that academic ability is the best (not saying that it is perfect or near-perfect) indicator of competency as a doctor. I'm sorry i cannot supply the data for this, I no longer have the powerpoint slides!

Obviously I can't comment on the UMAT. I mean, how am I, a person with no formal training in psychology, supposed to be competent in judging the usefulness of such a test

I am sincerely interested, however, in why you are able to reach the conclusion that Auckland's intake process in "highly flawed"

Spoken like true Auckland Med student lol. Well I was being polite and you must remember I'm very familiar with the FMHS and how it works since was taught, did research and did teach there over the last 8 years.

We all know schools aren't going to admit C- averages but the predictive value of grades beyond an A- is pretty much nil. Furthermore as you have already indicated, it is the best indicator, but it's still pretty rubbish. You can dig up an NZMJ article on this matter if you wish.

But the problem with Auckland Med School selection process is not the intellectual caliber of the students it selects (although I've certainly queried a few over the years). The problem is the arrogance of a significant proportion of the selections. This is a complaint around the FMHS by staff and other students, and when the clinical years (and later, the junior doctors) get into the hospital. Arrogance is very dangerous for patients. You measure the quality of an admissions process by the quality of the cohort it selects, in my mind and the minds of other health professionals, Auckland has had a problem for sometime and it needs to be addressed.

Now I don't want to be seen to slander FMHS's good name and the med students that sail in her, there are some great docs coming out, but a significant proportion let down the team with their attitude.

You're a third year I believe so you've had about 2.5yrs at uni (1.5 at med school)? Take some time to check out your class mates' attitudes towards other students on campus and other health professions. I do this down here and there are a few students who will need a kick up the bum before they enter the hospital <_<

 

[hugo0123456]

Hi

Its me again, was asking about competitive /graduate entry coz I want to have some kind of idea of what my chances will be if i don't get in the first year in Auckland

1) so would the graduate entry at auckland uni be counted as the second time (last) after failing to get in the first year?
as they say on the site that all applicants are only eligible to TWO attemps to MBChB in Auckland

2)Do applicants via graduate entry still have to attend an interview in order to get in?

3)With graduate entry, they rank you mostly by GPA but not UMAT? i know the requirement is 25+th percentile, but is the weighting and ranking different from those of first year courses? (ie 60% gpa, 15%umat etc etc)

4)Would the graduate entry spaces be separate from those that are from first years? (eg, the 210 spaces)?

5)Heard that Auckland is increasing the number of spaces into MBChB II, is that true? If yes, anyone knows to what extent?

6)Also, are there any certificates/ qualifications required? (eg, St John First aid etc..)

Thanks again for answering!

 

[toaster]

Hi

Its me again, was asking about competitive /graduate entry coz I want to have some kind of idea of what my chances will be if i don't get in the first year in Auckland

1) so would the graduate entry at auckland uni be counted as the second time (last) after failing to get in the first year?
as they say on the site that all applicants are only eligible to TWO attemps to MBChB in Auckland

2)Do applicants via graduate entry still have to attend an interview in order to get in?

3)With graduate entry, they rank you mostly by GPA but not UMAT? i know the requirement is 25+th percentile, but is the weighting and ranking different from those of first year courses? (ie 60% gpa, 15%umat etc etc)

4)Would the graduate entry spaces be separate from those that are from first years? (eg, the 210 spaces)?

5)Heard that Auckland is increasing the number of spaces into MBChB II, is that true? If yes, anyone knows to what extent?

6)Also, are there any certificates/ qualifications required? (eg, St John First aid etc..)

Thanks again for answering!

1) Yes, applying after completing overlapping year 1, would be your first attempt. Applying as a graduate would be your second attempt. You have two attempts regardless of what category they are in.

2)Graduate applicants have to sit an interview too.

3)From what I know, UMAT is worth 15% in graduate entry - the same as it is worth in undergraduate entry. I believe they rank you in the same way as well.

4)I think that graduate entry places may be separate from undergraduate places. For example, if a graduate pulls out, they are replaced by a graduate on the waiting list. In my year, the total number of students including graduates and undergraduates is 185. I believe they aim for about 30% graduates.

5) Places in both medical schools in the country are increasing, as per promises made by the National government. I think its 200 across both schools over several years. So I would guess that there would be at least an increase of 20 places for next year, and more in subsequent years.

6) For Auckland, there are no additional requirements.

 

[lordgarlic]

1) Yes, applying after completing overlapping year 1, would be your first attempt. Applying as a graduate would be your

4)I think that graduate entry places may be separate from undergraduate places. For example, if a graduate pulls out, they are replaced by a graduate on the waiting list. In my year, the total number of students including graduates and undergraduates is 185. I believe they aim for about 30% graduates.

as far as I'm aware this has never been the case, unless it changed last year. They AIM for 30% graduates and it USED TO work out that way by chance. Now, the OLY1 GPAs are rocketing up and as a result, the current MBChB III class only has something like 15 graduates because of that. They may have tinkered with it for your class but i'm not 100% sure

 

[toaster]

as far as I'm aware this has never been the case, unless it changed last year. They AIM for 30% graduates and it USED TO work out that way by chance. Now, the OLY1 GPAs are rocketing up and as a result, the current MBChB III class only has something like 15 graduates because of that. They may have tinkered with it for your class but i'm not 100% sure

One of the reasons that leads me to believe they may have separate places, is that this year theres alot more than 15 graduates in my class. I would find it hard to believe that as many graduates would have gotten in had there not been separate places, because of the ever increasing GPAs of first years.

 

[Leafie]

Yeah that is pretty anal especially when you're kinda teaching me to suck eggs. I know the difference, as does everyone else. Such is the nature of idiom.



Spoken like true Auckland Med student lol. Well I was being polite and you must remember I'm very familiar with the FMHS and how it works since was taught, did research and did teach there over the last 8 years.

We all know schools aren't going to admit C- averages but the predictive value of grades beyond an A- is pretty much nil. Furthermore as you have already indicated, it is the best indicator, but it's still pretty rubbish. You can dig up an NZMJ article on this matter if you wish.

But the problem with Auckland Med School selection process is not the intellectual caliber of the students it selects (although I've certainly queried a few over the years). The problem is the arrogance of a significant proportion of the selections. This is a complaint around the FMHS by staff and other students, and when the clinical years (and later, the junior doctors) get into the hospital. Arrogance is very dangerous for patients. You measure the quality of an admissions process by the quality of the cohort it selects, in my mind and the minds of other health professionals, Auckland has had a problem for sometime and it needs to be addressed.

Now I don't want to be seen to slander FMHS's good name and the med students that sail in her, there are some great docs coming out, but a significant proportion let down the team with their attitude.

You're a third year I believe so you've had about 2.5yrs at uni (1.5 at med school)? Take some time to check out your class mates' attitudes towards other students on campus and other health professions. I do this down here and there are a few students who will need a kick up the bum before they enter the hospital <_<

I don't know much about quality of Auckland admission or qualities of doctors from Auckland med school, but from the med students who i met they are all pretty friendly(yy). So i don't think they have attitude problems like you said. Please don't take it personally that's just my opinion based on what i know.

 

[Leafie]

Good luck to all for the exams!!! (which are coming REAL soon:woot

 

[lordgarlic]

But the problem with Auckland Med School selection process is not the intellectual caliber of the students it selects (although I've certainly queried a few over the years). The problem is the arrogance of a significant proportion of the selections. This is a complaint around the FMHS by staff and other students, and when the clinical years (and later, the junior doctors) get into the hospital. Arrogance is very dangerous for patients. You measure the quality of an admissions process by the quality of the cohort it selects, in my mind and the minds of other health professionals, Auckland has had a problem for sometime and it needs to be addressed.

Now I don't want to be seen to slander FMHS's good name and the med students that sail in her, there are some great docs coming out, but a significant proportion let down the team with their attitude.

You do bring up some valid points in your arguments and I don't disagree with you especially in regards to the attitudes of some of the med school students. The Otago selection system for UNDERGRADS (the post grad system is similar to auckland except with a different interview structure) is not particularly good idea. Selecting purely on the basis of academic merit and a psychometric test doesn't weed out anti-social psychotics either.

Unfortunately Otago isn't much better. I know quite a few Otago TIs who need a real good kick up their butt due to their horrendous arrogance and blatant disregard for authority.

Arrogance is not a good thing, but ALL med students are arrogant to a certain extent. In some ways it's the usual personality type that belongs in med school. What is important, is whether or not an individual and identify when they are being arrogant and take appropriate steps to improve themselves.

 

[Matt]

You do bring up some valid points in your arguments and I don't disagree with you especially in regards to the attitudes of some of the med school students. The Otago selection system for UNDERGRADS (the post grad system is similar to auckland except with a different interview structure) is not particularly good idea. Selecting purely on the basis of academic merit and a psychometric test doesn't weed out anti-social psychotics either.

Unfortunately Otago isn't much better. I know quite a few Otago TIs who need a real good kick up their butt due to their horrendous arrogance and blatant disregard for authority.

Arrogance is not a good thing, but ALL med students are arrogant to a certain extent. In some ways it's the usual personality type that belongs in med school. What is important, is whether or not an individual and identify when they are being arrogant and take appropriate steps to improve themselves.

Arrogance, I don't think, is the major problem. I thinks it more immaturity, a lack of respect, and disregard for authority that lets medical students down. Bit of a problem with 1st and 2nd year meddies at UWS, at the moment . I'm can be too arrogant at times but at least I'm mostly respectful. I would guess the problem you guys are describing is more a lack of respect than anything else.

 

[McNerdy]

Thanks for the considered replies guys, I was worried when I wrote it the flames would be 100 feet high

I think arrogance, over confidence and disregard for authority are all linked in a rather destructive triangle. It's a fine line between confidence and being over-confident and over-confidence breeds arrogance. Arrogant people disregard authority.

Immaturity is likely part of the problem there Matt like you say. We're young, in our physical and mental peak, we've known little personal tragedy and feel 'bulletproof' that combined with the status of being doctors (or DITs) can go to peoples heads because we don't understand how fallible we are. I think the Greek concept of hubris is probably the most apt, except it's the patient that falls before we do.

Lord Garlic, you make a good point that arrogance is a universal problem in all med schools and in the profession as a whole. The Otago admissions system is also flawed, but really this is shooting fish in a barrel. The problem is no one really knows what hoops med schools should make applicants jump through. The interview process at Auckland tends to be fairly confrontational and I think this links to what you are saying about the people who get into medicine. The cockier student will do better in a confrontational interview.

Sadly I don't think any interview actually weeds out the wackos. There is someone in year II at Auckland now who I know as serious problems with empathy, dishonesty and ability to cope under stress. An interview just won't pick those things up, because the only come up when you really get to know someone.

I don't believe arrogance is necessary in medicine and individuals do have to address the problem themselves, but why would they in an environment that does nothing to dissuade arrogance and may promote it?

 

[Matt]

I don't believe arrogance is necessary in medicine and individuals do have to address the problem themselves, but why would they in an environment that does nothing to dissuade arrogance and may promote it?

Again, I don't think arrogance is the right word. Excepting that, I think what needs to happen is a more formal emphasis on professionalism in the curriculum. Not just token learning objectives that give the appearance of addressing the problem. Tutorials/group discussion on what it means to be a mature, respectful medical student perhaps.

Or, alternatively, you could simply assume that medical students will develop maturity in their own time or else become surgeons.

 

[lordgarlic]

Lord Garlic, you make a good point that arrogance is a universal problem in all med schools and in the profession as a whole. The Otago admissions system is also flawed, but really this is shooting fish in a barrel. The problem is no one really knows what hoops med schools should make applicants jump through. The interview process at Auckland tends to be fairly confrontational and I think this links to what you are saying about the people who get into medicine. The cockier student will do better in a confrontational interview.

Sadly I don't think any interview actually weeds out the wackos. There is someone in year II at Auckland now who I know as serious problems with empathy, dishonesty and ability to cope under stress. An interview just won't pick those things up, because the only come up when you really get to know someone.

I completely agree with your points. I'm not defending the Auckland system nor harshly criticising the Otago system. Each system has it's strengths and weaknesses and in reality, there is no PERFECT system since everyone has different opinions on what the "perfect" medical student should be.

I too know of people in MBChB II who clearly are not well suited in my opinion to be a doctor, especially one in particular who has the communication ability of a rock. But likewise, I know of one of two students in Otago MBChB II that also have the communication skills of a rock.

Yes, the Auckland interview is confrontational and it has both it's merits and detriments. But as above, there is no PERFECT system.

 

[Leafie]

Hi toaster, Dr Skyglow just transfered me into your care about my "exam-freak-out syndrome". His advice was "Toaster got THE top mark for 101, so asking him is probably better!"
I'm really worried about the 101 exam, even though it is the last exam but there is so much to learn (both for evolution & biochemistry), and there are only 2 papers available for practice so i have no idea what sort of questions will be in there.
Any professional advice?

Thanks

 

[Leafie]

Yeah one down, three to go! HOHO

 

[mayo]

I was procrastinating from studying and found this brilliant site. Nice to meet everyone!

 

[mayo]

Hi toaster, Dr Skyglow just transfered me into your care about my "exam-freak-out syndrome". His advice was "Toaster got THE top mark for 101, so asking him is probably better!"
I'm really worried about the 101 exam, even though it is the last exam but there is so much to learn (both for evolution & biochemistry), and there are only 2 papers available for practice so i have no idea what sort of questions will be in there.
Any professional advice?

Thanks

I'm in the same boat here lol. But i'm more worried about POPLHLTH111 on Wednesday. They said its going to be different this year, hope it wont be too hard lol. Nice to meet you and good luck for ya exams lol