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The arrogance and ignorance of the ‘80 ATAR’ example aside: well over half of all medical students in Australia didn’t have their ATAR factor into their place offer at all... let alone into whether they became surgeons, that’s how irrelevant it is in the grand scheme of things.
I'm sorry I'd rather have someone with a 99 ATAR and 90%tile UCAT who just missed out on say UNSW Medicine operate on me - and I am sure that there are plenty of other people that I know and people on this thread who feel the same way... I know of rural/disadvantaged students with 80 ATARs and 30-40%tile UCAT/UMAT scores getting into Medical school. Are you saying that being rural is of such a disadvantage that for the sake of having representative cohorts that we are willing to accept objectively shit scores?
I got an objectively "shit" score in the UMAT, and yet I seem to be doing well so far in med. Does this mean I'm going to turn into a shitty doctor? Does this mean I simply didn't try hard enough and shouldn't be in med? The way the healthcare system generally works - you don't know the marks of the doctor who last treated you. In fact, perhaps to your shock and horror, you may have been treated by a ghastly Notre Dame student... or worse... a JCU graduate. Yes that's right - with possibly a 98 ATAR and no UMAT? Feel free to check my AHPRA registration next time I'm working though - I'd be perfectly fine not treating someone as arrogant as yourself, if you are merely discriminating on my academic "merit" at high school. How so petty.
With regard to the rural point - there is a whole body of research why taking rural Medicine students is beneficial, and it stems beyond merely a label of "disadvantage" but actually into benefits for society in the increased numbers of them returning to rural areas to serve workforce shortages.
Life is tough for everyone (even for many 'wealthy' people as I outlined earlier), sure more so for some than others, but surely there's got to be a place where we draw a line in just accepting people with shit scores for the sake of 'egalitarianism.'
Sounds like the LNP's mantra "bro just pull your bootstraps up" or "it is what it is - everyone suffers". There's a reason it's called the "bootstrap myth" - I'd have a brief read over the fallacy. I'd also prefer a world where doctors are represented outside of a slim academic threshold, don't you? Aren't there other qualities in being a good doctor? Surely you can admit this. I respect that everyone suffers from injustices including those at the top of the SES bellcurve, but I have little sympathy for those who complain about issues who also attend the most elite private schools who by virtue of the fact they attend these schools already are at an advantage to everyone else and likely have many privileges other people don't have.
I hope you will consider this alternate viewpoint.
I don't necessarily support this aspect of Law - but at the same time I understand that along with people being skilled in interpreting the law, the profession needs a certain level pomp and regalia to maintain its image. Of course you have to be amazing at what you do at the same time, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone if this matters at all in Medicine? (I also ask because literally every Specialist that I know of/have visited/have googled in Sydney either went to USYD or UNSW)
"Pomp, regalia and image" matter only to the people who invest in it. Ultimately though, no amount of image and prestige will save someone's life, nor make you good at interacting with patients - medicine is as much a humanity discipline as it is scientific. We need a representative cross-section of the community in medicine because it's been shown that a large swathe of the population is poorly served by privileged people who drip with pomp and regalia. Objective outcomes in indigenous communities are better, for instance, when we have indigenous doctors working within them.
I know of rural/disadvantaged students with 80 ATARs and 30-40%tile UCAT/UMAT scores getting into Medical school. Are you saying that being rural is of such a disadvantage that for the sake of having representative cohorts that we are willing to accept objectively shit scores? I do not necessarily support A1's view of being able to use access schemes in a 'free-for-all' race, but at the same time I echo the sentiment that I don't want substandard doctors looking after myself or the people I care about.
I got an "objectively shit score" (as you so nicely put it) in high school. Today, I'm a sought-after sub-specialist in a highly competitive field, with international academic credentials and multiple degrees. Be aware that a less-than-stellar performance in high school does not doom you to being a "substandard doctor" (nor does it mean that you're necessarily stupid), and conversely, a high leaving score doesn't mean you're gifted and destined to be great at your job.
ETA: WRT lifting oneself up by one's own bootstraps: see what MLK had to say about the bootless man:
Just to clarify - why is it so important that medical school cohorts be representative of the general population? The only arguments I can think of are that it's important for doctors to be from a broad range of backgrounds so that they can better understand the difficulties faced by certain sections of the community and as a result empathise with them and provide better medical care. Why should this not apply to say Law school? Is it not important that people representing other people in the legal field, and who largely go on to hold influential positions in government, the judiciary, politics and legal firms should not be representative of the general population which they affect? At present I can confidently say that at the Law school I attend, 60% of students are from private schools (not just non-government schools, these are the $30k+ a year schools), 30% of students are from high-performing from selective schools and maybe 10% or so are from no-name public schools. These statistics are even more skewed towards private schools at the other Go8 Law school in Sydney. I don't know how true this is for Medicine, but for Law there are an incredibly high number of cliques based on high school circles and there is a certain level of pedigree expected of those who enter the profession and things like bedside manner, the way you dress, the university you attend, how you network and where you live all matter to a certain extent. I don't necessarily support this aspect of Law - but at the same time I understand that along with people being skilled in interpreting the law, the profession needs a certain level pomp and regalia to maintain its image.
As a law student here are my two cents worth regarding law school.
I didn't get into law with an amazing 99+ score but rather through disadvantaged pathways... does that make me any less of a law student than you? Certainly not. So I don't see why it would make anyone less of a medical student/doctor than you (or anyone with a higher atar). Actually, I pride myself on my experiences and non-academic achievements rather than defining myself and my abilities based on my atar... My experiences and aspirations have shaped me into the young woman I am today, and my atar is only (and will only ever be) a stepping stone to reaching my goals. I wasn't going to chime in but having experienced, and working with other people who have experienced significant disadvantages makes me really uncomfortable reading your stance on this issue...
I'm from that 10% of the law student population you mention- the lack of diversity in law currently is appalling. Medical schools should be taken as an example to follow in terms of being representative- I'm sure you would agree with this given your first point. Having diversity in law school enables individuals from a wide range of backgrounds to add their perspectives to the greater legal community.
An individual's academics, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual preference, etc etc. are IRRELEVANT to their worthiness of entering the profession- and especially as part of the law profession we MUST be able to understand and represent every combination of those constituencies. We pride ourselves as a uni on having a "diverse law student population"- diversity isn't limited to ethnicity/gender/sexual preference/religion; you should know best as a law student that diversity also encompasses academic diversity.
Sorry to break it to you, but the "university you attend, how you network, and where you live" play no role in determining whether you are going to be successful or not... you'll see this as soon as you break out of the toxic law student clique and start working in the real-world.
I know of rural/disadvantaged students with 80 ATARs and 30-40%tile UCAT/UMAT scores getting into Medical school. Are you saying that being rural is of such a disadvantage that for the sake of having representative cohorts that we are willing to accept objectively shit scores? I do not necessarily support A1's view of being able to use access schemes in a 'free-for-all' race, but at the same time I echo the sentiment that I don't want substandard doctors looking after myself or the people I care about. Life is tough for everyone (even for many 'wealthy' people as I outlined earlier), sure more so for some than others, but surely there's got to be a place where we draw a line in just accepting people with shit scores for the sake of 'egalitarianism.'
It's people like you who make me (a rural student) work incredibly hard to try and get into medicine by the standards that are expected of city students. I think in the back of my mind, there's a fear that people like you will sit in the same lecture theatre as me, wondering why I'm even there. Do you know how many students get a 90 ATAR much less a 99 ATAR in rural areas? It's a really small handful. There's a range of factors that contribute to why students aren't getting those marks, so if the rural quota didn't exist it would deny the students with potential and passion who perhaps didn't have the best means the opportunity to pursue what they love. Of course there's a government incentive to encourage these graduates to return back to rural and remote areas and fill the shortage of doctors there, but I think there's also an inspiring tone of representation attached. For a younger student in these towns to see others being able to make it into medicine, shows that it's not only a possibility but a reality.
Im not gonna quote anyone and say why they’re right/wrong but I’ll try and demonstrate why it’s important to have representation in medicine with a scenario. Everything in this scenario is fictional but I’m drawing from my experiences living as a “disadvantaged” western sydney local.
scenario:
Iqra is a married Lebanese woman in her 20s living in her bankstown home with her husband and 2 year old daughter. Bankstown is a western sydney suburb with a high Arabic speaking population.
iqra has a year 10 education and has always told you she wants to become a teacher for students with special needs because “they’re gorgeous special children who deserve all the love they can get ” but she hasn’t been able to get around to doing that because “marriage got in the way”. iqra normally comes in quite often for a check up, usually whenever “Panadol doesn’t work” (once every 2 months)
iqra comes to visit her trusted GP (you) during a heat wave and is in full sleeved clothing and jeans instead of her “signature” (as she puts it) sweatpants and t shirt look. It’s been half a year since she has come to see you (she has never taken this long to see you again before).
when iqra walks in, you jokingly say “I’m going to need to see some ID... iqra is normally in a t shirt and sweatpants ” and in response to this she puts her hands up and says “you got me ” and then sits in the chair.
She comes with a seemingly pretty serious problem and you have to order some further tests to help her. During the meeting, you ask her why she hasn’t come in for a while and she says “oh you know... just busy with my baby girl - she never lets me take my eyes off her ... but yeah, the Panadol didn’t work this time so here I am ”
you speak to her for a bit and she mentions how she hasn’t seen her mum who lives in Auburn (a suburb 25 mins from bankstown) in a month and is starting to miss her. “Things are just so busy sometimes, you know?”
after a small conversation, you say come back in a week to see the test results.
then the meeting ends.
*next week*
Iqra comes in with her husband and daughter the next week. Summer is still going strong and you see iqra and her daughter in matching jeans and long sleeved shirt while the husband is in the signature iqra uniform (sweatpants and t shirt).
during the check up, the husband asks for the results and you explain it to him. You tell them There are a few complications but it’s nothing life changing. The husband asks if any medication is needed and you tell the family about it. They don’t have any questions and so the meeting comes to an end.
*end scenario*
what do you guys think about this scenario? Take some time to consider it and then see what I think about it.
here’s what I think about it (not saying I’m 100% right and all knowing etc. but see if there’s a difference in your understanding of the scenario vs mine):
first things first... it’s been ages since I last saw iqra and she is in covered clothing. This is completely abnormal from what I know of iqra. I know from my experience, many people I personally know mention that their mothers when going through domestic violence (DV also happens with men too but for this scenario I happened to use a mother) stopped going to meet responsible adults because their partner controlled who they were allowed to see and minimised time with doctors so that no reporting could happen.
the same mothers going through DV would go to extreme lengths to cover bruising from domestic violence and wear long clothing even in hot weather. They can play the whole thing off perfectly as if it’s nothing and avoid any circumstances which involves being questioned about their Bruising. Some of the mothers did this for 10+ years.
before even considering this though, I’d also be concerned about and explore why she didn’t pursue her dream of being a teacher for students with special needs. was it because her husband didn’t allow her to pursue this? Many of my friends’ mothers living in bankstown tell me of their old dreams and how their husbands practically barred them from pursuing a job or education. Sometimes it’s a mutually agreed upon thing by both parties which is 100% OK but sometimes it isnt. As someone that knows Bankstown pretty well, my red flag alarm system would be ringing at this.
the next thing that sticks out to me is how different iqra is in both of the consultations. First consultation she is making jokes and speaking freely with you and in the second, the husband does practically all of the talking for her. I know that people going through DV act very differently with vs without their partners. With their partners, they usually become very subordinate and don’t do much talking. I’ve experienced this even going into my friends’ houses - when dad isn’t there, it’s all fun and games but when dad is there it’s “sorry smelly boy, my dads home and he said you can’t come”/“let’s just hang out in my room” and the mother doesn’t even say hello to me when I walk in. Interesting link for DV signs GPs should be aware of - worth the read.
now for anyone who knows anything about the Lebanese community in bankstown, you know that family get togethers are literally priority number 1. Doesn’t matter if there’s a tsunami around, you’ll see the Bankstown Lebanese community swimming to their family members’ house. It’s something that happens almost every week. For Iqra to not have seen her mother in a month, be missing her and using “being busy” as a justification is something very suspicious. I know my friends living in Bankstown told me that their abusive fathers cut connections with a the partner’s family so that their abused partners wouldn’t have the chance to speak about the things happening to them. The abused partners wouldn’t tell their friends abojt it because it’s a HUGE taboo to speak about “family problems” to anyone out of the family. Cutting down intimate family time = pretty much safe guarding the abuser from being brought to account.
these are the main things I would’ve picked up on from this scenario. 100% of real life scenarios are far more complex than this. Typically, the only sign you will have to go off is the last one I discussed - less time with family. If you don’t know that being with family is a huge priority for the Bankstown community and the possible implications of less family time (abusers not being brought to account), then you could miss out on an opportunity to help someone going through domestic violence.
You may see more signs than i did which is great .
How did you do? Does this demonstrate why you need a strong representation in medicine and how it’s in the best interest of patients to have doctors that similar lived experiences as them?
i don’t have time (and honestly most likely not even the right technique yet) to go through how different dealing with this in a western sydney disadvantaged context would be vs. (for example) a north shore community.
Hope this paints the picture and feel free to correct me for anything I misrepresented/comment on what you guys think
Just noticed, that the subject bonuses don't apply to medicine at Uadel but nowhere does it say that they don't apply to Uadel dent? Additionally, with the 5 UES points for financial disadvantage, does that mean one could potentially get upto 7 bonus points and boost their atar significantly for Uadel dent?
Interestingly however, no where on last years collated data for Uadel dent place offers does it mention of any UES boosts....?
View attachment 4083
Just noticed, that the subject bonuses don't apply to medicine at Uadel but nowhere does it say that they don't apply to Uadel dent? Additionally, with the 5 UES points for financial disadvantage, does that mean one could potentially get upto 7 bonus points and boost their atar significantly for Uadel dent?
Interestingly however, no where on last years collated data for Uadel dent place offers does it mention of any UES boosts....?
I'm starting to think that ATAR doesn't matter that much for dentistry, as Adelaide doesn't use a strict percentage weighting for place offer determination like 40/40/20 (like they do for medicine). Instead, they say they'll "consider the three components in the order of interview > ATAR > UCAT". There's many ways of interpreting this ambiguous statement, one of which is interview is considered first, and ATAR as a tiebreaker (making it not-so-useful).
I'm starting to think that ATAR doesn't matter that much for dentistry, as Adelaide doesn't use a strict percentage weighting for place offer determination like 40/40/20 (like they do for medicine). Instead, they say they'll consider the three components in the order of interview > ATAR > UCAT. There's many ways of interpreting this ambiguous statement, one of which is interview is considered first, and ATAR as a tiebreaker (making it not-so-useful).
If that were the case, shouldn't some of the reported offers made on mso for Uadel dent last year have significantly lower ATAR's? Since they consider only interview first?
Or are interview scored really bunched up together so the eventually HAVE To use the atar anyway for tiebreaker...
Thought experiment from me (and apologies if this has been discussed already - I am not up to speed with the forum activity over the last month!) - how big of an impact can a 20% UCAT weighting have on the chances of an offer at Adelaide (looking for an answer other than "20%" )?.
Just thinking with Adelaide - do they use UCAT rankings in a numbered list like we think UNSW does, do they use Z-scores, do they just scale the raw UCAT score value to a score out of 20....?
I'm thinking that rather ironically, if UCAT has a big enough weighting (if my thinking is correct, which it may very well not be, then it wold be particularly profound if Adelaide uses Z-scores) then the whole interstate requirement of 96%ile and local requirement of 71st %ile may almost rule out the local applicants at the lower end of the scale without a top quality interview + ATAR, if not ruling them out completely before they've even had their interview.
Obviously 20% weighting of UCAT for overall offers isn't huge, but 25%iles of difference between the pre-ATAR and pre-interview stage IS huge. Could it be that a local with a 71st %ile will need a 99+ ATAR and an interview in the top ?15% just to get an offer? It would be rather ironic if the minimum of 50% interviews going to local applicants ends up having a minimal impact on the overall place offer distribution because interstate applicants have too big of a "head start" with the UCAT cutoffs.
Can I call on the statistical aficionados in A1, ucatboy, dotwingz and anyone else to weigh in with an opinion here?
I've also been thinking about all the possible permutations of what Adelaide have done (because lol, my first exam is Tuesday so it's great use of my time!) and can't quite come up with an answer.
The one thing I did reflect on is the fact that Adelaide have pretty routinely had very low rural UCAT/UMAT requirements. I remember someone a couple of years ago with a score in the 20th percentile range getting an interview (and this year we've seen it down into the 40s already for invites before top ups - if they do those this year). Surely they wouldn't consistently do this if their final scoring criteria effectively rendered those applicants incapable of being competitive.
The other thing I was thinking about was why they did it: was it to increase their SA student intake at the offer stage due to difficulty maintaining a local workforce? Or was it to overcome the issue they seem to have every year with 50+% decline rate (very much predominantly from interstate students - both rural and non). If it's to overcome the decline rate, then I don't actually see the point of limiting the interviews to those with crazy high UCATs as they are the people most likely (not completely, but most likely) to also get home state interviews and then home state offers. Effectively perpetuating the same problem.
This makes me think a) they haven't really thought through the problem and went with an easy solution, or b) the issue is a workforce one (not a decline rate one). But I have no idea whether that is true re. the workforce in SA.
LOL. You would think not, but then again Flinders does this with their graduate entry program and similarly Adelaide with their undergraduate program. It has NEVER made sense to me why they interview applicants based on UCAT alone and then made offers with ATAR/GPA contributing significantly - you could have people with ATARs below 95 interviewing who obviously have no chance at an offer even with a perfect interview and UCAT. The same goes with Flinders - an applicant with a GPA below 6 almost certainly won’t land an offer (unless they’re in a sub quota) but the uni will waste their own and the applicant’s time interviewing them because they base it on GAMSAT alone. I don’t understand it.
LOL. You would think not, but then again Flinders does this with their graduate entry program and similarly Adelaide with their undergraduate program. It has NEVER made sense to me why they interview applicants based on UCAT alone and then made offers with ATAR/GPA contributing significantly - you could have people with ATARs below 95 interviewing who obviously have no chance at an offer even with a perfect interview and UCAT. The same goes with Flinders - an applicant with a GPA below 6 almost certainly won’t land an offer (unless they’re in a sub quota) but the uni will waste their own and the applicant’s time interviewing them because they base it on GAMSAT alone. I don’t understand it.
They don’t have to have their set up this way, they choose to. They could choose to have an ATAR hurdle, they could choose to use predicted ATARs and then actual for top ups... that they choose the method they do is what sparked this discussion as we try to figure out the motivation for it and how it will play out in the long run.
They don’t have to have their set up this way, they choose to. They could choose to have an ATAR hurdle, they could choose to use predicted ATARs and then actual for top ups... that they choose the method they do is what sparked this discussion as we try to figure out the motivation for it and how it will play out in the long run.
Apart from UAdel it seems some other unis are using only the ucat result for interview as well, e.g. JMP, JPM, Monash 1st round), & UQ. Does UAdel med have a hurdle of 90, or that's just for dent?
The interstaters with 96%ile+ will most likely have offers elsewhere, therefore may cause even less interstaters to enrol in UAdel med. It's a big win to the SA locals who would not be able to get in in the past years.
My daughter also mentioned that her Senior School head said that there will be no Year 13 next year, ie no repeating subjects to improve marks, as too many are going to the disadvantaged schools, gaining those bonus marks. So it looks like that loophole is closing...
My daughter also mentioned that her Senior School head said that there will be no Year 13 next year, ie no repeating subjects to improve marks, as too many are going to the disadvantaged schools, gaining those bonus marks. So it looks like that loophole is closing...
I don’t mean that a particular school has refused to take repeating students. I understood that to mean that while you can resit the UCAT, you can’t repeat subjects at a disadvantaged school to gain the 5 points &/or boost your ATAR. I suspect many of the ex-private school gap year kids going to Flinders in recent years have gotten in this way which is unfair in my book. Have not seen this in writing anywhere though.
I don’t mean that a particular school has refused to take repeating students. I understood that to mean that while you can resit the UCAT, you can’t repeat subjects at a disadvantaged school to gain the 5 points &/or boost your ATAR. I suspect many of the ex-private school gap year kids going to Flinders in recent years have gotten in this way which is unfair in my book. Have not seen this in writing anywhere though.
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” but she hasn’t been able to get around to doing that because “marriage got in the way”. iqra normally comes in quite often for a check up, usually whenever “Panadol doesn’t work” (once every 2 months)
” and in response to this she puts her hands up and says “you got me 
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.![[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] Discussion: Medicine Entry Bonus Points and Subquotas](https://data.medstudentsonline.com.au/attachments/3/3544-a8532489c71ee4215fc8fe79493f14f8.jpg?hash=6GuWoCLb_s "[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] Discussion: Medicine Entry Bonus Points and Subquotas")
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