But imagine if they kept the threshold the same but since they decreased the content it becomes easier for more people to reach that threshold. There are also some people who are at an even more significant disadvantage than those who are eligible for MAPAS entry. 10 people is pretty significant if that swings like that every year. Plus I feel like there are those who are even more disadvantaged who end up with general entry. The rules for MAPAS is pretty loose as well imo. Just saying there should be a limit in case something insane like that happens. Mostly bothered by admissions for not being transparent about how it all works.
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HSFY 2019
- Thread starter Stuart
- Start date
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Hi all,
Sorry to bug you guys but I've just released my second much longer blog on my full HSFY experience, I don't really know how to market myself so i'm just posting here as it seems the most active and relevant thread, and other recommendations would be welcomed.
Cheers
hsfyblog.blogspot.com
Sorry to bug you guys but I've just released my second much longer blog on my full HSFY experience, I don't really know how to market myself so i'm just posting here as it seems the most active and relevant thread, and other recommendations would be welcomed.
Cheers
My HSFY Experience
My HSFY Experience To preface this, I’ll split this blog into 4 main parts: before, semester one, semester two and after. This will hope...
hsfyblog.blogspot.com
Hi,
If one understood the reality of things, one wouldn't be worried about this. You should look into why we have sub-categories. The statistics are quite interesting. I am happy to direct you to information, if you would like.
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As Stu has said, this is an issue that comes up every year.
If you have an issue with the MAPAS scheme, I would appreciate it if you would take a moment of your time to try to empathise with Maori and Pasifika peoples. It is not possible to truly empathise unless you have been the subject of cultural oppression, but give it a go.
Maori and Pasifika people are disadvantaged by the system in every way possible. If you research even a little into New Zealand history, you will be horrified by the treatment of Maori, of the blatant and constant discrimination practiced against them by the colonial powers, of the systematic attempts to stamp out Maori culture entirely. I'm talking about the mistranslation of te Tiriti o Waitangi. I'm talking about the fact that "smart" Maori pupils would be taken away from their families in order to cut them off from their culture so they could "integrate" into western society. I'm talking about Maori students being shoved into poorer-paying blue-collar jobs through an education system that was designed to churn them into a life that would be of lower quality than Pakeha. I'm talking about Maori patients not being prescribed pain killers as much as Pakeha patients with the same issues. I'm talking about blatant racism against Maori, the perception that they are "lazy" and "don't care about their health" (actual quotes from medical practitioners in this millennium!)
I'm talking about Pakeha expecting Maori to somehow miraculously bounce back from that kind of oppression that took place over literal centuries.
The western biomedical model of health somehow expects every human being to fit neatly into the little box they have labelled "patient". Patient comes, tells problem, gets diagnosis, takes medication/treatment, gets better. There is no concept of whanau health, there is no concept of wairua.
The MAPAS scheme is a bandaid on a compound fracture. It doesn't address the root of the problem, but at least it is doing SOMETHING. The doctors it produces can go forth and challenge the cultural hegemony more, they can call out the racism in the system, they can help empower Maori and Pasifika people to SPEAK UP about what THEY NEED from our health system.
Equity is inherent in the concept of practicing medicine. We need to make it the everyday reality.
So yeah, if 200 Maori students hit their requirements and get into medical school - GOOD.
If you have an issue with the MAPAS scheme, I would appreciate it if you would take a moment of your time to try to empathise with Maori and Pasifika peoples. It is not possible to truly empathise unless you have been the subject of cultural oppression, but give it a go.
Maori and Pasifika people are disadvantaged by the system in every way possible. If you research even a little into New Zealand history, you will be horrified by the treatment of Maori, of the blatant and constant discrimination practiced against them by the colonial powers, of the systematic attempts to stamp out Maori culture entirely. I'm talking about the mistranslation of te Tiriti o Waitangi. I'm talking about the fact that "smart" Maori pupils would be taken away from their families in order to cut them off from their culture so they could "integrate" into western society. I'm talking about Maori students being shoved into poorer-paying blue-collar jobs through an education system that was designed to churn them into a life that would be of lower quality than Pakeha. I'm talking about Maori patients not being prescribed pain killers as much as Pakeha patients with the same issues. I'm talking about blatant racism against Maori, the perception that they are "lazy" and "don't care about their health" (actual quotes from medical practitioners in this millennium!)
I'm talking about Pakeha expecting Maori to somehow miraculously bounce back from that kind of oppression that took place over literal centuries.
The western biomedical model of health somehow expects every human being to fit neatly into the little box they have labelled "patient". Patient comes, tells problem, gets diagnosis, takes medication/treatment, gets better. There is no concept of whanau health, there is no concept of wairua.
The MAPAS scheme is a bandaid on a compound fracture. It doesn't address the root of the problem, but at least it is doing SOMETHING. The doctors it produces can go forth and challenge the cultural hegemony more, they can call out the racism in the system, they can help empower Maori and Pasifika people to SPEAK UP about what THEY NEED from our health system.
Equity is inherent in the concept of practicing medicine. We need to make it the everyday reality.
So yeah, if 200 Maori students hit their requirements and get into medical school - GOOD.
Look, "Maori's" are a mix of Pakeha and Maori, with how the system is, you're telling me, if someone that is 1/8th Maori, but lived in a relatively privileged life because they looked white and essentially is white, gets to have an easier way in than an Asian who lived a harder life than this said "Maori". The definition of fair is a bit messed up here. I get all the history, but you can't say that if there was a situation that 200 MAPAS students got in instead of other people who also worked just as hard and may actually have had a harder life than those 200 people, that it's in any way shape or form fair. I'm not worried about this happening or anything like that, I'm just saying you can't say it's that fair. It's about half fair when you take into account everything.
Hi there,
It's practically impossible to take account of each and every contributing factor. It's a general rule or approach to ensure we have a good representation on a population level. To me, "I'm just saying you can't say it's that fair" would be a passive-aggressive way of saying "it's not fair because I was disadvantaged". What is not fair is that, on the population level, Maori/Pasifika are heavily disadvantaged in life. I think it would certainly help if we looked at the bigger picture first.
I don't know why you are fixated on the near impossible, theoretical extreme case of having 200 MAPAS applicants. If we had that many, there will be changes, so don't worry about that. If you are interested in having a debate on this theoretical case, we can open a new thread for it.
It's practically impossible to take account of each and every contributing factor. It's a general rule or approach to ensure we have a good representation on a population level. To me, "I'm just saying you can't say it's that fair" would be a passive-aggressive way of saying "it's not fair because I was disadvantaged". What is not fair is that, on the population level, Maori/Pasifika are heavily disadvantaged in life. I think it would certainly help if we looked at the bigger picture first.
I don't know why you are fixated on the near impossible, theoretical extreme case of having 200 MAPAS applicants. If we had that many, there will be changes, so don't worry about that. If you are interested in having a debate on this theoretical case, we can open a new thread for it.
I'm not disadvantaged, and yeah I did say it's partially not fair. Which was my point. I'm not fixated on 200, Verdigris said if 200 MAPAS students got in instead of others it would be good. I'm saying it's not. Once again I'm not worried whatsoever.
sparestuff
Member
Seems like you're describing a small, small minority of students who might take advantage of that scheme (Most MAPAS students I've seen are genuinely Maori/Pacific and work hard to achieve just as high grades as anyone else), however from what I've learned in population health the MAPAS scheme is definitely a step in the right direction towards improving the health outcomes of the Maori community. Maori/Pacific doctors are more likely to work in Maori/Pacific communities as opposed to other ethnicities of doctors, and can provide more effective treatment through better understanding of Maori/Pacific culture. Frankly we could use more, as many doctors tend not to practice in lower decile areas. Also if the scheme hasn't been a problem for previous years entry into medicine, it probably won't be a problem for other students in the general scheme this year either. Australia also has a similar scheme for their indigenous populations.
Not trying to sound demeaning or condescending but frankly I wouldn't worry about other people's entry into medicine. If you are only eligible for the general scheme of entry I would just focus on achieving the requirements for that scheme, there is no point looking at MAPAS/Rural schemes and wondering about how unfair it is when you have a chance to get in through your own merits. The University provides all the tools you need to succeed, it's up to you whether you take full advantage of it. I'd say entry to medicine is completely fair, it's 100% the effort you put in that counts.
Hi Noom,
I may be mistaken here because it is difficult to tell the tone of language. Please, correct me if I am wrong, but your style of writing seems to be becoming passive-aggressive. I hope you didn't take Verdigris's last remark literally because that was not the point of their argument. If you are interested in talking about this matter further, I am happy to open up a new discussion thread for us to talk.
Noom I genuinely think you misunderstood my post.
I'm not talking about personal hardship, I'm not talking about personal suffering, I'm not talking about living a difficult life. Anyone can experience hardship. What I'm talking about is systematic racism.
New Zealand belonged to Maori long before Pakeha knew of its existence. Everything that we do in New Zealand must be according to the spirit of te Tiriti - partnership, participation, protection. The MAPAS scheme is the way that the medical school is fulfilling these obligations, which you can essentially understand to be part of New Zealand's "constitution".
Do non-Maori experience discrimination? Yes, obviously. That is not the issue in question here. The question is of te Tiriti obligations, and of the vast and categorical difference in health outcomes between Maori and non-Maori.
I would highly recommend taking MAOR102. It's offered in semester 1 and 2, and you can take it alongside medicine if you gain entrance with departmental approval.
I'm not talking about personal hardship, I'm not talking about personal suffering, I'm not talking about living a difficult life. Anyone can experience hardship. What I'm talking about is systematic racism.
New Zealand belonged to Maori long before Pakeha knew of its existence. Everything that we do in New Zealand must be according to the spirit of te Tiriti - partnership, participation, protection. The MAPAS scheme is the way that the medical school is fulfilling these obligations, which you can essentially understand to be part of New Zealand's "constitution".
Do non-Maori experience discrimination? Yes, obviously. That is not the issue in question here. The question is of te Tiriti obligations, and of the vast and categorical difference in health outcomes between Maori and non-Maori.
I would highly recommend taking MAOR102. It's offered in semester 1 and 2, and you can take it alongside medicine if you gain entrance with departmental approval.
Boeing7478
Member
I fully understand why there is the MAPAS pathway, but I don’t agree with them setting a threshold for entry and having unlimited spots. There should be a fixed number of places so that only the top X number of people in that pathway get in. This way, only the people that are actually competent can get in, similar to the general category for HSFY. This would likely lower the medicine dropout rates for people under the MAPAS pathway, and protect the spots reserved for the general category. I think making the MAPAS people compete against each other for limited spots is better in the long run
The threshold IS the level of competency you require to complete medicine. The university and government would not invest tens of thousands of dollars into someone who would not be able to complete the course and become a practicing doctor. The only reason that the requirements are so high for the general category is because of competition. Your GP would have had a FAR lower GPA than many people who are rejected from medical school today.
Hi there,
I don't think you realise how few people apply under that category. Furthermore, they do meet the minimum level of competency at the entry level. You can't just walk right in. Again, if we had disproportionate number of people, there will/should be rules implemented. At present, this is not the case.
That's literally all I've been trying to say...
Sorry, I have to reply again.
Do you realise Boeing7478 that you just implied that Maori doctors aren't competent? Do you think an incompetent would pass the medical school exams?
There are always incompetent doctors, but to imply Maori medical students and doctors are specifically incompetent because they don't meet the outrageous standards set by the admissions board for standard entry is truly grievous.
I am horrified by the lack of empathy and compassion, the clear display of privilege, the lack of cultural competence, and the general ignorance here.
If you are fortunate enough to become a doctor some day, I hope you bother to learn about the founding document of our country (that's the Treaty of Waitangi, or rather, te Tiriti o Waitangi, in case you missed that in my previous posts, which I genuinely don't think you properly read) and the duties and obligations that we have to the indigenous population.
Straight A+s might get you into med, but they won't make you a doctor people will want to see or be treated by.
If you are salty about the possibility of not getting into med - hey, I get it. I've been there. I've been rejected from med school. I've been hurt by this frankly brutal process. But please stop taking it out on the vulnerable members of our population.
Do you realise Boeing7478 that you just implied that Maori doctors aren't competent? Do you think an incompetent would pass the medical school exams?
There are always incompetent doctors, but to imply Maori medical students and doctors are specifically incompetent because they don't meet the outrageous standards set by the admissions board for standard entry is truly grievous.
I am horrified by the lack of empathy and compassion, the clear display of privilege, the lack of cultural competence, and the general ignorance here.
If you are fortunate enough to become a doctor some day, I hope you bother to learn about the founding document of our country (that's the Treaty of Waitangi, or rather, te Tiriti o Waitangi, in case you missed that in my previous posts, which I genuinely don't think you properly read) and the duties and obligations that we have to the indigenous population.
Straight A+s might get you into med, but they won't make you a doctor people will want to see or be treated by.
If you are salty about the possibility of not getting into med - hey, I get it. I've been there. I've been rejected from med school. I've been hurt by this frankly brutal process. But please stop taking it out on the vulnerable members of our population.
Boeing7478
Member
All I said was I believe there should be a fixed number of places for all subcategories. That would help solve quite a few problems. I never said anyone was incompetent, I just suggested that they should make the MAPAS people compete amongst themselves for places, if you cared to read. How is that unethical or display a lack of empathy? If you make MAPAS people compete with the general category, that’s kinda discrimination, but letting too many of the MAPAS people take up the spots for the general category is also discrimination. So what do you mean it’s good if 200 MAPAS people get in? That’s just as bad as letting the general category take up all the med spots
Just going to quote your previous reply. I'm not going to comment further since I don't want to add anymore to this.
"This way, only the people that are actually competent can get in" - what you said previously.
Yes, I did read your entire post Boeing7478 . If 200 MAPAS students hit the requirements, they'll all get in. If zero hit the requirements, then zero get in. Yes, the number can go up, but the number can also go down. Capping the number of places for MAPAS = restricting their opportunities = impact on Maori population. This way, there is neither a cap nor a quota. A high-achieving Maori student will get in. One who doesn't meet the threshold will not. Regardless of the other numbers that year.
Hi there,
You seem to be insinuating that MAPAS applicants will take over or something. This is not the case in reality. There is currently no big issue with letting them through like that. They are overly under-represented as of now. The MAPAS (or any sub-category) is one way to encourage/ensure we have a better representation in the community. We don't need to be concerned about capping the seats.
I see where you're coming from. It's incredibly frustrating when you are aiming to get into medicine, and your whole life you've been told you need amazing grades, and then you find out there is a group of people who can realise your dream without getting marks as high as you, or with seemingly less work.
However, the reality is becoming a doctor is not a right anyone has. It is a privilege granted by the NZ health system who are solely in the business of providing health care to New Zealanders. If you are Maori, statistically, you will die ten years earlier than if you weren't, and having more Maori doctors is one small way the system is attempting to close the gap. And any differences in marks in HSFY don't amount to diddly once you are a doctor: after 5 years of medical school (let alone years of post-graduate training).
So yes, it is unfair if you try your best and don't get into medical school - most people who want to be a doctor at some stage don't get to be one, and for them, the system is unfair. But the far bigger injustice is when a significant proportion of the population suffers because doctors don't want to work in the town they live, can't pronounce their name correctly, don't make their patient's feel like their needs are listened to, and generally just disengage them from the healthcare system.
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