I think any resulting change would be marginal at best (especially since UNSW is one of if not the most oversubscribed medical school in the country), but at least in the right direction.
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[Undergrad] UMAT 2017 Results Discussion
- Thread starter DrDrLMG!
- Start date
I think any resulting change would be marginal at best (especially since UNSW is one of if not the most oversubscribed medical school in the country), but at least in the right direction.
Personally I have no problems with this^, however the conveyed message there is if one has 96-97 ATAR (lowest amongst interviewees) don't even bother applying because you are not well rounded.
Previously it was the three components weighted 33/33/33, which means ones with 96-97 ATAR at least have some chance of being successful with a top UMAT + Interview. If now they have zero chance isn't it a change for the worse.
I think the same could be said about someone who got a low UMAT (in which case again, you can say "oh, you're not well rounded because your UMAT was low" despite there being tenuous at best evidence that the UMAT actually does anything to the quality of resulting graduates). Unfortunately this is a result of very mismatched demand and supply which has been in the system for a very long time.
I'd go so far as to say that I think that the ATAR is a more legitimate way to select for students than the UMAT (as it correlates with university performance... which makes perfect sense as academic achievement predicts academic achievement) - and as a result those students who got 96-97, although not "lacking" compared to the general population, are generally lacking a bit compared to the 99 camp. I personally don't care if they make it so that 96/97 ATARs have 0% chance of getting in (it's essentially that way anyway as things are currently - no non-rurals in the cohort with ATAR of 96 for years as far as I know) - the issue is with the demand for medicine, not the supply.
In that sense, "well rounded" means "high achieving in multiple life aspects", of which academic achievement is one of them. Since it's such a big one, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with culling students in the 96-97 range the same way there is nothing wrong whatsoever with culling students with UMAT scores under 170, or 61/50/50, or whatever arbitrary cutoff you set for convenience. With that kind of cutoff you are still going to have overwhelmingly mismatched demand for medical school places, and this is a simple, effective way of selecting for well rounded students.
As I've voiced multiple times on this forum, I think the solution to all of this is to make medicine a much less desirable career to choose. It's already lacking in many aspects compared to many other careers - it's just that the weight of these shortcomings need to be understood by the body of applicants, so that they can make the conscious decision not to choose medicine.
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I don't disagree with these points Mana , what I'm trying to highlight is the oddities in UNSW's *process*. Whereas UQ/UWA set straight out 99.0 eligibility for non-rural/bonus/broadway, UNSW sets it at 96.0 presumably to give *some* 96-97s a chance if they excel at the other two components. It has turned out that way since the lowest ATARs that got in UNSW without special considerations last two years were 96.7 & 97.3
Now if we have interpreted UNSW's new criteria/process correctly it means UNSW is saying although eligibility is set at 96.0, reality is 96-97s can apply for fun as they won't be well rounded to have a chance. Likewise a 97.0/99%ile is invited to an interview and after they do a top interview UNSW turn around & say no you are not well rounded to get an offer. That's an absurd situation isn't it.
TL;DR version: If UNSW has decided 96/97s are not good enough then raise eligibility to 98.0+ up front. If not then once they are invited to interview any applicant can be rejected if they don't achieve above a cutoff interview score (regardless of their top ATAR/UMAT), but it's not right to reject them at that late stage due solely to their ATAR now being deemed not well rounded.
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I think this is more akin to just not releasing information to the public. For all intents and purposes this is like setting the cutoff at ~98 for ATAR.
Furthermore, I think that it's perfectly fine that a 97.0/99%ile could be invited to an interview, do a top interview, and then have UNSW not offer them a place, simply because in all likelhood there are more well rounded candidates in the pool. For all intents and purposes, if the UMAT, ATAR, and interview are all weighted 1/3, then students who reach a threshold determined by UNSW should be able to sit the interview.
To put it another way, the interview is for the benefit of the *university* to be able to select students using it as a criterion. It's not for the benefit of the students at all (same as the UMAT isn't really for the benefit of students, it's just another culling tool). The university is not obliged to tell someone not to interview simply because they have a close to zero chance of admission, in the same way that ACER is not obliged to advise someone not to sit the UMAT because they have a close to zero chance of admission with their existing academic marks. Now, the university could be nice and tell people not to attend interviews because they have a zero chance of admission, but to do so they would have to predict that there will be enough people scoring higher than that person overall to bump them out (which is usually a safe prediction, but not a 100% sure one).
faysapprentice
Regular Member
Should we try and get someone to email UNSW to ask them what they mean by that convoluded statement?
Siddy
Member
As I previously stated I did give them a call and they suggested that there was no real change to the selection process, although it is possible they just aren't being transparent, which wouldn't be surprising. It could also be that the person I spoke to just wasn't completely aware of any change that had occurred. Someone else can email them if they really want.
I'll just give my two cents and say I disagree here, at least as a rural student. The resources available in regional Australia are not comprable to those in large cities such as Sydney. Many people go to tutoring centres such as Matrix daily. People who can afford these have a large advantage over those who can't and will likely get to the "99 camp", even if the 97 student is more "naturally gifted". And a lot also comes down to the environment of the student. If everyone is pushing and helping you to get that 99+ ATAR and you have other students who are also pushing for that, you'll do better than someone in a school that doesn't really care about the final academic results that much and other students are not giving competition for you to push yourself. Again, maybe this is just a rural perspective, but its just what I've noticed.
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Just to clarify - I'm not comparing between rural and non-rural here, I'm comparing between urban candidates who are otherwise equally advantaged. I've explained elsewhere the rationale for allowing lower scoring rural students and I think it's a big positive. But within the same schools, within the same cohorts, as a general rule, there is a reasonable difference between a 97 and a 99 student.
MnI
WSU MBBS II
I'd just like to suggest, for argument's sake, that perhaps not all urban areas are otherwise equally advantaged in the grand scheme of things. Competition, economic stability, learning resources and opportunities, quality teachers etc cannot be taken for granted to be present in all areas classified as urban.
I come from the Lake Macquarie area which is classified as an urban area and I went to a public High School with a reasonable reputation in my area. During my 6 years of High School not one person (in my year, or the years above and below mine) achieved over 98 ATAR. Perhaps that suggests that no-one from my school is academically capable of studying medicine but I don't believe so (or I certainly wouldn't be applying for med as a non-standard). I should also add that I completed my schooling in 2009 and I do not know the results of the cohorts after I completed my HSC.
Yes, there are certainly pockets of advantaged and disadvantaged students in metro areas as well. Likewise, I'm not trying to state that someone from the disadvantaged pocket with lower ATAR is less capable; it's a comparison of all else being equal.
I do realise that setting cutoffs at the 98 mark pretty much rules out all those from disadvantaged pockets, but I also think there needs to be more equity schemes out there for low SES etc. As it is, it's an imperfect system (for my take on this, see the April Fool's joke I posted on Facebook at Med Students Online - 81000 views, 500 likes and 1300 comments to date).
I do realise that setting cutoffs at the 98 mark pretty much rules out all those from disadvantaged pockets, but I also think there needs to be more equity schemes out there for low SES etc. As it is, it's an imperfect system (for my take on this, see the April Fool's joke I posted on Facebook at Med Students Online - 81000 views, 500 likes and 1300 comments to date).
Siddy
Member
Hit the nail on the head there. That's kinda what I was referring to, although I came off as talking more about rural vs metropolitan education.
Overall UMAT Score: 178
Section One: 64
Section Two: 67
Section Three: 47
Overall Percentile Rank: 89
Estimated ATAR/GPA: 6.0
Preferred University: UWS
Course Type: Medicine
Application type:
State: NSW
Rural: No
ATSI: no
GWS: no
Other Bonuses: no
Question/s: Hi, is there any chance that I can receive an invitation for an interview at UWS? Also is there anywhere else I could get accepted into? Thanks
Section One: 64
Section Two: 67
Section Three: 47
Overall Percentile Rank: 89
Estimated ATAR/GPA: 6.0
Preferred University: UWS
Course Type: Medicine
Application type:
State: NSW
Rural: No
ATSI: no
GWS: no
Other Bonuses: no
Question/s: Hi, is there any chance that I can receive an invitation for an interview at UWS? Also is there anywhere else I could get accepted into? Thanks
NDR
Member
Yes and Yes.Overall UMAT Score: 178
Section One: 64
Section Two: 67
Section Three: 47
Overall Percentile Rank: 89
Estimated ATAR/GPA: 6.0
Preferred University: UWS
Course Type: Medicine
Application type:
State: NSW
Rural: No
ATSI: no
GWS: no
Other Bonuses: no
Question/s: Hi, is there any chance that I can receive an invitation for an interview at UWS? Also is there anywhere else I could get accepted into? Thanks
For an interview S1+S2 > 128 (so tick)
Then it's primarily about the interview, so with a good interview you're definitely a shot
As NDR said yes for WSU but did you have ATAR 95.5+ or have you completed your degree? If neither then you may have a little problem with GPA 6.0 vs 6.1 required.
Regarding anywhere else, you can try JCU and if you have ATAR 99+ to go with GPA 6.0 UNSW is a chance. Unfortunately JMP/UTas/Curtin are out of reach due to the 50/50/50 rule.
I'm actually applying as an onshore international student, what are my chances in receiving offers from UQ, UNSW and Monash?
Overall ISAT Score: 174
Section One: 54%
Section Two: 72%
Overall Percentile Rank: 63%
Estimated ATAR/GPA: 99.90, IB44
Preferred University: UQ, but honestly anywhere
Course Type: Medicine
Application type: school leaver
State: QLD
Rural: no
Other Bonuses:
Overall ISAT Score: 174
Section One: 54%
Section Two: 72%
Overall Percentile Rank: 63%
Estimated ATAR/GPA: 99.90, IB44
Preferred University: UQ, but honestly anywhere
Course Type: Medicine
Application type: school leaver
State: QLD
Rural: no
Other Bonuses:
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Hello A1, I am entering info on my son's behalf, here are his stats:
Melbourne resident (so non-rural), Year 12 currently, not Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, just plain standard Year 12 leaver.
We have applied to all Unis in Australia and Auckland in NZ (missed the Otaku date, my fault not his).
UMAT score was 193 (97th percentile):
S1 = 66
S2 = 56
S3 = 70
Strangely they add up to 192 but his score was listed as 193, 97th percentile.
Based on his scaled Bio 3/4 score last year (40) and his estimated scores for his remaining subjects this year, I have used the ATARNotes calculator at vce.atarcalc.com and come up with the following:
English Language 40
Specialist Mathematics 46.8
Mathematical Methods 45
Chemistry 41
Biology 10% 40
Physics 10% 35
Which results in an estimated ATAR of 97.15
By reading the table provided by A1 (FANTASTIC work by the way, enormously helpful!) I think he will be a contender for the following (albeit a long-shot contender for some of them):
Uni of Adelaide, Monash Uni, UNSW, UWS, UQLD, Uni of New Eng/Newcastle, and Curtin U
I may be a bit optimistic with some of those or I may be missing some others that he will be a contender for but would appreciate opinions on what his chances are and what his most likely Unis will be.
All responses will be appreciated and thanks in advance
Melbourne resident (so non-rural), Year 12 currently, not Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, just plain standard Year 12 leaver.
We have applied to all Unis in Australia and Auckland in NZ (missed the Otaku date, my fault not his).
UMAT score was 193 (97th percentile):
S1 = 66
S2 = 56
S3 = 70
Strangely they add up to 192 but his score was listed as 193, 97th percentile.
Based on his scaled Bio 3/4 score last year (40) and his estimated scores for his remaining subjects this year, I have used the ATARNotes calculator at vce.atarcalc.com and come up with the following:
English Language 40
Specialist Mathematics 46.8
Mathematical Methods 45
Chemistry 41
Biology 10% 40
Physics 10% 35
Which results in an estimated ATAR of 97.15
By reading the table provided by A1 (FANTASTIC work by the way, enormously helpful!) I think he will be a contender for the following (albeit a long-shot contender for some of them):
Uni of Adelaide, Monash Uni, UNSW, UWS, UQLD, Uni of New Eng/Newcastle, and Curtin U
I may be a bit optimistic with some of those or I may be missing some others that he will be a contender for but would appreciate opinions on what his chances are and what his most likely Unis will be.
All responses will be appreciated and thanks in advance
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Hi welcome to MSO. There's some good and some bad news - his chances generally don't look very promising due to 97.1 ATAR, but the good news is with the 2 bonus Rank points for Spec Maths (making him OP1/Rank 99) and 192 UMAT he can be SURE of a UQ provisional offer. So he absolutely needs to get that 97+.
For the other unis: he's not likely to get a WSU interview (S1+S2=122 vs 128), not likely for UNSW (97.1 needs close to 200 UMAT), looks about borderline for Curtin interview.
But he should get interviews with JMP with equal 1 in 4 chance for everyone, Adelaide with 1 in 7 chance, and Monash being a Vic student with guesstimate 20-30% chance. All the best with his exams.
Zed From a pure numbers point of view about 6% of those that sat the UMAT will receive an offer of a place in Medicine for next year.
This is a really daunting statistic; the process is incredibly competitive.
Most of the applicants are outstanding.
Most will be unsuccessful.
Some will be incredibly disappointed.
Best wishes to your son. Your support will be really important to him.