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USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

BillyB

Member
Similar example:
Dr. Hanlie Engelbrecht
BChD, DipOdont(MFOS), MDent(WITS)MFOS, FCD (SA)MFOS.
Oral Surgeon
MaxFac

The woman (above) has the exact same qualifications and surgical training as the OMS in the previous example (they are both single degree trained OMS from South Africa). However, because she was registered more recently (after they changed the name game rules in Australia) she is an "oral surgeon". However, as I said before they both have the same OMS surgical training from the same University in fact (they are both single degree OMS specialists regardless of title) and therefore have the same scope of practice.

As a matter of fact, Dr. Engelbrecht also completed a fellowship in Cleft and Craniofacial surgery after her OMS training. So she is competent and able to perform a very wide scope of surgical services.
I see what you are saying, yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work. The reason this is possible is because those people have done proper OMS training overseas, in effect, they are oral and maxillofacial surgeons and as you say it is only politics stopping them from being able to register as such. However, my comments are in specific reference to this new Sydney course. This course does not intend to train oral and maxillofacial surgeons, it intends to train oral surgeons. That is the difference versus the overseas courses. And that is why I believe their scope will be limited.


Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery)
The Doctor of Clinical Dentistry (Oral Surgery) will develop your skills in the surgical management of the full range of oral diseases in hospital and non-hospital settings, complemented by a research project in the field of oral surgery and oral pathology under the supervision of an academic staff member.

note the intention of the course. To make you proficient in oral stuff. Not maxillofacial stuff.
 
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Smith88

Member
The reason this is possible is because those people have done proper OMS training overseas.
They completed (as you said), a "proper OMS training" program (which as I pointed out) is a 3-4 year program that does not require a medical degree. This is the structure for the majority of OMS programs around the world.

Again, you are right ... (in that) it is your postgraduate training that determines your scope (and not whether you are single or dual degree OS/OMS).

yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work.
Exactly.

The DClinDent is a great option for those who wish to train locally in Australia/NZ as oral surgeons without completing medicine. (which is actually the norm in most of the world)
OMS ... even the dual RACDS track is still a specialty of Dentistry don't forget.
... and as we agreed: The core of the OMS work is the same whether or not you have a medical degree.

For those that wish to gain more experience in other areas a clinical Fellowship is the usual route.
Many surgeons (from all specialties : plastics, ENT, OMS, general surgery, paediatric surgery, etc) often complete complete fellowships after training to widen their scope in an area of interest (even the RACDS - dual qualified OMS grads often do this).

It is good that we now have both options for dental graduates in Australia. Some may wish to complete a single qualified track +/- Fellowship ; and some may wish to complete a dual qualified track +/- Fellowship. It all depends on what area of practice you enjoy most.

I do agree however that it definitely helps to have a medical degree if you want to practice the wider scope of OMS. And for some people they may prefer that route.
 
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BillyB

Member
and as we agreed: The core of the OMS work is the same whether or not you have a medical degree.
The important point is that this USYD course isn't a OMS training program and it shouldn't be confused with one.

This course trains people in teeth/oral surgery (extractions, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery). They can't use this degree as a base to 'upgrade' their skills to a full OMS either - it doesn't work that way.

If one wants to practice the proper scope of an oral and maxillofacial, they still either have to do the dual degree pathway here in Australia, or do a formal OMS training program overseas and then use the 'back door' AHPRA trick. But dual-qualification is now considered the standard unless you were trained pre 1995, so IMO one really does need to a have a medical degree and FRACDS to 'keep up' with their peers and remain respected over the course of a 20-40 year career (unless they are happy just doing teeth/dental stuff in private practice type setting)
 
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Smith88

Member
If one wants to practice the proper scope of an oral and maxillofacial, they still either have to do the dual degree pathway here in Australia, or do a formal OMS training program overseas and then use the 'back door' AHPRA trick.
You mean registration as an oral surgeon. Yes.

BillyB said:
yes, I agree it is possible to be registered in Australia as an oral surgeon and still do OMS work.
Yes. Correct.

They can't use this degree as a base to 'upgrade' their skills
Really? ...because Fellowships post specialty can be a way to increase clinical exposure and scope for any surgeon. The RACDS - OMS grads do this all the time as I have pointed out. So yes (any single degree OS/OMS can as well) ...just like anyone else.

IMO one really does need to a have a medical degree and FRACDS to 'keep up' with their peers and remain respected over the course of a 20-40 year career
I think that speaks volumes about many people's viewpoints on this issue. Thanks for that.

Honestly, I know many single qualified Oral surgeons/OMS who are very respected and very qualified surgeons!

Many of these are the very surgeons who are actually teaching the dual degree residents/registrars how to operate by the way.


The important point is that this USYD course isn't a OMS training program and it shouldn't be confused with one
Look I have never stated that the DClinDent (Oral Surgery) at Otago or Sydney trains for or should prepare people for full reconstructive head and neck surgery. It really doesn't matter what they are or aren't teaching at Otago or Sydney's new programs.. I'm not trying to argue this point.

My point is: 1) Many OMS (dual degree or not) are not that interested in doing expanded scope head and neck cancer, facelifts, or craniofacial surgery as the bulk of the work is dento-avleloar anyways.
Again.. don't forget that even if an RACDS - OMS who graduated with a medical degree wanted to do this type of expanded scope work. They too require another 1-2 year fellowship in these areas after RACDS-OMS training in order to do it.

Single or dual degree... The Core procedures are the same : wisdom teeth, implants, prosthetic surgery, orthodontic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

Additionally, 2) there is nothing wrong with a graduate of a DClinDent (or any surgical program for that matter) expanding their skill set after graduation in an area of interest. Yes, there are post-specialty fellowships available for single as well as dual degree graduates.

Again, It is your postgraduate training that determines your scope.

I still agree that if someone knows from the outset that they want to do cancer surgery, craniofacial, or facial cosmetic then they probably should be doing a medical degree and a wide scope program as it will make things easier. Again, it depends on what your goals are. I agree with you here.

The important point here is that: Selection of a training path is a personal decision. There are pros/cons to both training paths. But these are paths that should compliment/support each other, not divide the specialty of OMS.
 
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Smith88

Member
I am an Australian dental graduate who is now completing OMS in the states. If I were to move back to Australia to practice I would be registered as an oral surgeon (which I have no problem with btw). I am at a great training program that is training us in the full scope of OMS. Our program director is in fact a single degree OMS who has also completed a fellowship in Head/Neck microvascular surgery.

Where I am training they offer both single and dual degree training options and the residents in both programs train along side each other for the same procedures. No one has any issue or less respect for the people in the other program. We are all "oral and maxillofacial surgeons" here regardless if you have a medical degree or not as OMS is a dental speciality and the medical degree is optional and peripheral to our training. Looking back at the bubble that is Australia from the outside I can see that the politics of our speciality there are often petty and divisive and I'm hoping things will change in the future.
 
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BillyB

Member
My point is: 1) Many OMS (dual degree or not) are not interested in doing expanded scope head and neck cancer or cleft/craniofacial surgery as the bulk of the work is dento-avleloar anyways.
Again.. don't forget that even if an RACDS - OMS who graduated with a medical degree wanted to do this type of expanded scope work. They too usually require another 1-2 year fellowship in these areas after RACDS-OMS training in order to do it.
The Core procedures are the same : wisdom teeth, implants, pre-prosthetic surgery, orthodontic surgery, benign pathology, and facial trauma.

Additionally, 2) there is nothing wrong with a graduate of a DClinDent (or any surgical program) expanding their skill set after graduation in an area of interest.
With regard to Point 1: I'll say again: this USYD course will not enable graduates to do facial trauma - it is simply not part of the course goals. "Oral Surgery" in Australia has a very specific definition and this course has been designed and credentialed against that specific definition. "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery" is considered a separate specialty and has its own definition which is much broader.

One way to understand this course is to compare it to all the other dental specialties (eg endodontics, orthodontics, periodontics etc). They get all their patients from dentist referrals and they all sit in a dental office and confine their practice to a specific area of dentistry confined to the oral cavity more or less. If that's what someone wants then they should go for it, there is great potential for success if one has the passion for that area.


With regard to point 2: Advanced training posts are rare and in Australia, you need a strong background of surgical experience (eg ENT, plastics) to get into one. Being extremely well trained and proficient in intra-oral surgery but having little other experience is unlikely to cut it. I'm just being realistic here.

Because of your OMS training overseas, you may very well get a hospital consulting position as an OMS in Australia and be able to use that to get extra credentialing in H&N etc, and I hope you do, however, this USYD course is not the same at all.
 

BillyB

Member
Just to summarise the situation here in Australia:

There are two distinct specialties
1. Oral Surgery
-Requires a dental degree and a postgraduate degree to specialise
-Courses available: DClinDent (USYD) and one in NZ
-Graduates are not trained in surgery of the broader maxillofacial area (eg no facial trauma)
- Graduates will likely work in private dental specialist practices or in public dental hospitals hired as dental specialists

2. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery
-you need both medical and dental degrees and be registered with RACDS
-the scope includes everything in (1) + maxillofacial work
-you can expand your scope in the head and neck region further by doing extra formal training on top

Option 3. Go overseas and complete complete a training program in Oral & Maxillofacial surgery and come back to Australia
- you can only register as an Oral surgeon and you can't legally call yourself an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, despite the fact that you are fully trained as one overseas
-technically you may be able to practice the full scope of OMS, however, my understanding is that OMS positions in public hospitals generally require registration as an Oral & Maxillofacial surgeon, but happy to be corrected by anyone with experience. In any case, the opportunities may be less, as an example, this position requires RACDS:
https://nswhealth.erecruit.com.au/ViewPosition.aspx?id=93231
i.e you have the skills, but may be difficult to get the job/position to fully utilise them.
 
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Smith88

Member
Because of your OMS training overseas, you may very well get a hospital consulting position as an OMS in Australia and be able to use that to get extra credentialing in H&N etc, and I hope you do.
Thanks.

Yes, that is what I have been told as well. Regardless of which specialty classification I am registered as (oral surgeon/OMS), if I can demonstrate that I have completed formal training in full scope OMS procedures (overseas) then I will be able to obtain privileges to perform these if/when I return. So it really doesn't matter.

As an "oral surgeon" in Australia I would be able to perform all of the procedures I have been trained in during my OMS program overseas.
 
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Where I am training they offer both single and dual degree options and the residents in both programs train along side each other for the same procedures. No one has any issue or less respect for the people in the other program. We are all oral and maxillofacial surgeons. Looking back at the bubble that is Australia from the outside I can see that the politics of our speciality there are often petty and I'm hoping things will change in the future.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to know more about training as an OMFS in the states! Would you inbox me?
 

Smith88

Member
I'll just post my response here so others can benefit.

Are there many 4 year omfs residency programs in the US that take internationals?
Not a lot. no. However, there are some. In the thread (if you scroll up) I listed a handful of single degree OMS programs that currently consider internationals. Every year or two some North American programs decide to re-consider taking internationals (so you never know). Honestly, you will just need to apply to all of the 4-year programs in US/Canada .... and you will get mostly rejections.. but just like me. Eventually you might get an acceptance.

If you are interested in applying you will need to complete the US National dental board exam. (if you want to apply to Canadian programs you will need to sit the Canadian Dental Board exam). Additionally, I would recommend doing externships (1-2 weeks observing/hands on) at each program you are interested in applying to.

Here is a list of all of the US OMS programs
Search for Dental Programs


You may also want to consider applying to OMS Internship programs (particularly if you don't think you'll get accepted to a full OMS program on your first attempt). An internship is just a 1-year job in the OMS department. An intern functions the same as a first year OMS trainee (all the same experience) but it is not an accredited training position (meaning you don't get to progress to year 2 of the training program). However, if you are truely interested. I would apply to all of the 1-year OMS internships in North America too because most people who complete one of these (and do well that year and get a letter of recommendation at the end of the job) will get accepted into an accredited OMS training program the following year.

Here are just a couple of examples:

If a dental graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited OMS program in Canada or the US (what I am doing); then this will allow you to get a license to practice as an OMS in North America afterwards. You can also return to Aus/NZ and register (as an "oral surgeon") but still practice the full range of OMS procedures learned during your training.

Additionally, the head of our program said if a DClinDent (oral surgery) graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited clinical OMS fellowship the States/Canada (1-2 years) afterwards and obtained a license to practice; then they too would be registered as an OMS here in North America.
 
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I'll just post my response here so others can benefit.



Not a lot. no. However, there are some. In the thread (if you scroll up) I listed a handful of single degree OMS programs that currently consider internationals. Every year or two some North American programs decide to re-consider taking internationals (so you never know). Honestly, you will just need to apply to all of the 4-year programs in US/Canada .... and you will get mostly rejections.. but just like me. Eventually you might get an acceptance.

If you are interested in applying you will need to complete the US National dental board exam. (if you want to apply to Canadian programs you will need to sit the Canadian Dental Board exam). Additionally, I would recommend doing externships (1-2 weeks observing/hands on) at each program you are interested in applying to.

Here is a list of all of the US OMS programs
Search for Dental Programs


You may also want to consider applying to OMS Internship programs (particularly if you don't think you'll get accepted to a full OMS program on your first attempt). An internship is just a 1-year job in the OMS department. An intern functions the same as a first year OMS trainee (all the same experience) but it is not an accredited training position (meaning you don't get to progress to year 2 of the training program). However, if you are truely interested. I would apply to all of the 1-year OMS internships in North America too because most people who complete one of these (and do well that year and get a letter of recommendation at the end of the job) will get accepted into an accredited OMS training program the following year.

Here are just a couple of examples:

If a dental graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited OMS program in Canada or the US (what I am doing); then this will allow you to get a license to practice as an OMS in North America afterwards. You can also return to Aus/NZ and register (as an "oral surgeon") but still practice the full range of OMS procedures learned during your training.

Additionally, the head of our program said if a DClinDent (oral surgery) graduate from Australia or New Zealand were to complete an accredited clinical OMS fellowship the States/Canada (1-2 years) afterwards and obtained a license to practice; then they too would be registered as an OMS here in North America.
I appreciate the responses, as there is some very useful information that you have provided. I am also considering applying to American OMFS programs and wanted to know more about your journey and things you had completed to make your application more attractive.
 

Smith88

Member
I am also considering applying to American OMFS programs and wanted to know more about your journey and things you had completed to make your application more attractive.
I think the hard part is finding a US or Canadian OMS program that is currently considering taking internationals. Very few programs take internationals and even then.. they change their rules all the time. (might be even harder at the moment with COVID)

How do you make your application more attractive? Well its much the same for all specialty programs in that most like to see quality research experience (especially publications).

Also, OMS has long hours can be pretty gruelling. Most program directors like to see that you have actually spent time working in an OMS department and been part of a surgical team (so you know what you are getting involved with before they commit to taking you). How do you do this? well as stated before (scroll up) you can do an intern year (unaccredited year as an OMS reg in a US program : this is the best thing you can do. As long as you get a good reference from the program you intern with; almost all who do an intern year in a US program and get good references will get into a full accredited OMS program the following year!). The next best thing is to do an externship (1-3 month observing in a US program). Also you could try doing a GPR (general practice residency : similar to being a dental officer in a hospital).
 

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Smith88

Member
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.
 
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Sentinel

Member
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.

Hi Smith88
I am currently starting my dent degree (with med background)
I would like to get some advice. Would you be able to check your DM
 
Some more options

Boston Uni 1-year OMS internship (accepts internationals)


Texas A&M 4 year OMS residency
"Applicants with dental degrees from foreign dental schools are eligible for the 4-year Certificate Program on a case by case basis"

Tufts (Boston) 4 year OMS training program (accepts internationals)
There is an OMS currently working in Sydney who trained there:
Dr Howard Sandler
BDS, MSc. Dent. (Wits.), Cert. Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery (Tufts, Boston)
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon

There are lots of pathways people have taken. The more people you talk to you the more options you may discover.
I appreciate your time and information provided, really helpful!
 

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