USYD DClinDent (Oral Surgery)

Smith88

Member
Thanks for the info Smith.

How much do residents earn in US?
depends on the program. As a general rule of thumb.. less than in Australia. Most US programs pay residents 40-80k per year. They also work you harder. Most US OMS programs have longer hours and more on call work with more trauma.

To qualify for the resident salary (at MOST / not all programs) you have to be a US resident or citizen.

A lot (not all) of the OMS programs that take internationals either don't charge tuition (but also don't pay you a salary). Or some may pay you for some of your teaching through the University (if uni affiliated). Some of them charge internationals high tuition. You can't generalised all US programs. Each state/hospital/University may have different funding systems in place.
 

Smith88

Member
The US and Canadian 4 year OMS programs are great all rounders and don't require med and would also allow you to work in the states after or return to work in Aus/NZ as OS.

If you know you want to practice general OMS scope in Au/NZ (Wisdom teeth, benign path, some trauma, orthognathics/ortho related surgery, dental implants, grafting, etc. and are sure you are not interested in H/N or facial cosmetic stuff) Then I would strongly consider the NUS Singapore MDS OMS program or the Sydney/Otago programs.

Has anyone else here looked at NUS/Singapore? Again, I would have gone there myself had I not got into a US program. I would have also considered the local Syd/Otago programs too had they been available at the time I was applying.
 

Smith88

Member
I'm new to this game but I've been told by one of OMFS consultant that not to use OS referees when applying for OMFS. They won't even look at your application and you will not get into the speciality. I had vague idea on politics and turf war between OS and OMFS but didn't realise its very much real and will affect your chance of getting into the program.
There are no turf issues between oral surgeons with med degrees (dual degree) or those without med degrees (single degree) in the States or Canada (or for that matter pretty much anywhere else in the world). In my experience this seems to be mainly an Australian issue. And in saying that its always a negative attitude from those who have done the (dual degree RACDS - ANZAOMS program) having an issue with those who have not (instead of the other way around).

Outside of this bubble of Australian politics.. this negativity doesn't really exist around the globe and most dual and single degree trained oral surgeons work together all the time without issue.
 
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Smith88

Member
"Dentist does botched boob job in Sydney".

The "dentist" they are referring to I'm pretty sure is a dual qualified OMS in western Sydney who did another couple of years of cosmetic surgery training after finishing OMS.

Goes to show you even the maxfacs guys are called "dentists" by the plastics guys. OMS is a dental specialty. Embrace it.


What does everyone think about this case? Personally, I have no issue with some cosmetic procedures done by OMS/OS, but I think they should stick to the Face. You want to do breasts or full body then complete FRACS (Plas).
 

Sentinel

Member
"Dentist does botched boob job in Sydney".

The "dentist" they are referring to I'm pretty sure is a dual qualified OMS in western Sydney who did another couple of years of cosmetic surgery training after finishing OMS.

Goes to show you even the maxfacs guys are called "dentists" by the plastics guys. OMS is a dental specialty. Embrace it.


What does everyone think about this case? Personally, I have no issue with some cosmetic procedures done by OMS/OS, but I think they should stick to the Face. You want to do breasts or full body then complete FRACS (Plas).
Isnt it part of your log book that you need to have done certain amount of cosmetic procedures during OMFS training?

I always thought Aesthetic fellowship is a “proper” fellowship you can get into after general omfs training? (At least outside of Aus) Ive heard its bit hard to get the cases / experiences during your general training unless you have a consultant who has interest or has done aesthetic fellowship?

how does it work in US? Do you go through AACS?
 

Sentinel

Member
"Dentist does botched boob job in Sydney".

The "dentist" they are referring to I'm pretty sure is a dual qualified OMS in western Sydney who did another couple of years of cosmetic surgery training after finishing OMS.

Goes to show you even the maxfacs guys are called "dentists" by the plastics guys. OMS is a dental specialty. Embrace it.


What does everyone think about this case? Personally, I have no issue with some cosmetic procedures done by OMS/OS, but I think they should stick to the Face. You want to do breasts or full body then complete FRACS (Plas).
I know of few cosmetic surgeons in Australia had training with ACCS. ACCS is not an accredited training provider though and I have no idea what kind of training they provide.

They also don't train anyone and have high bar for an entry.
  • An FRACS or equivalent surgical qualification.
  • Five years post-graduate, including three years of accredited surgical training.
  • Ophthalmologist, ENT, Facio-Maxillary surgeon.
  • Other by special consideration.

Funny how they want their regs to be accredited in surgical training yet their program itself isn't accredited...
 
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Smith88

Member
Isnt it part of your log book that you need to have done certain amount of cosmetic procedures during OMFS training?
In the States and Australia cosmetic work isn't really a requirement for graduation from OMS. Some programs may offer exposure to some. But that's about it.


As far as I understand in Australia, there are no clinical requirements of cosmetic cases in the RACDS program. I'm sure theory is examined in Australia (just like in the states). But that is about it. However, as far as I'm aware there are no "facelifts" required for completion of FRACDS (OMS).

Those interested in facial cosmetics (or for those with medical degrees who want to push the limits with full body cosmetics) usually case logs are completed during a fellowship post specialty training.
 
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Smith88

Member
how does it work in US? Do you go through AACS?

In the states... you have a few options.

  • You can either do a CODA (dental board accredited) approved fellowship in facial cosmetic procedures (there are 3-4 of these in the country)
  • Or you can apply through the aafprs : Login | AAFPRS.
  • Or you can apply to one overseas and just develop a logbook and once your logbook is suitable can simply then just apply to your local hospital for accreditation for these procedures.

Personally, I learned enough cosmetic techniques to not create traumatic scaring during surgical access to the face (for removal of pathology or trauma management). However, building a private practice around facial cosmetic procedures never interested me much. No matter how good you are. You're patients are rarely truely happy after. 😆 Generally you'll be dealing with more difficult patients who are more likely to complain.
 
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So, hi,

I am an Overseas Dental Student looking to become an OMFS in Australia. So far the following are what I understand about the Australian scene:
1. One has to qualify in Dentistry and Medicine
2. One has to be registered to practice both disciplines in Australia (and automatically NZ)
3. Completing internships in both fields.
4. One has to complete a year of Surgery in General before being eligible to apply to RACDS for a place in OMFS.

The SIG year is what I do not understand. How does that work? I have scoured the net, no detailed explanation still.

I appreciate it if anyone can shed some light.

Xie xie
 

Unluckydude

Regular Member
So, hi,

I am an Overseas Dental Student looking to become an OMFS in Australia. So far the following are what I understand about the Australian scene:
1. One has to qualify in Dentistry and Medicine
2. One has to be registered to practice both disciplines in Australia (and automatically NZ)
3. Completing internships in both fields.
4. One has to complete a year of Surgery in General before being eligible to apply to RACDS for a place in OMFS.

The SIG year is what I do not understand. How does that work? I have scoured the net, no detailed explanation still.

I appreciate it if anyone can shed some light.

Xie xie
Are you an international student studying in dentistry in Australia or a foreigner studying dentistry in a foreign country?
 
"Dentist does botched boob job in Sydney".

The "dentist" they are referring to I'm pretty sure is a dual qualified OMS in western Sydney who did another couple of years of cosmetic surgery training after finishing OMS.

Goes to show you even the maxfacs guys are called "dentists" by the plastics guys. OMS is a dental specialty. Embrace it.


What does everyone think about this case? Personally, I have no issue with some cosmetic procedures done by OMS/OS, but I think they should stick to the Face. You want to do breasts or full body then complete FRACS (Plas).

Are you an international student studying in dentistry in Australia or a foreigner studying dentistry in a foreign country?
I am a foreigner studying Dentistry in a foreign country.
 
Your first (big) hurdle would be to pass the ADC examinations to gain unrestricted dental registration in Australia and NZ. From what I've heard it's far from a sure guarantee and can take multiple attempts over several years with a very low overall pass rate. Unfortunately they don't make it easy.
What's the SIG year for OMFS all about?
 
"Dentist does botched boob job in Sydney".

The "dentist" they are referring to I'm pretty sure is a dual qualified OMS in western Sydney who did another couple of years of cosmetic surgery training after finishing OMS.

Goes to show you even the maxfacs guys are called "dentists" by the plastics guys. OMS is a dental specialty. Embrace it.


What does everyone think about this case? Personally, I have no issue with some cosmetic procedures done by OMS/OS, but I think they should stick to the Face. You want to do breasts or full body then complete FRACS (Plas).
I can't see the article behind the paywall. Do they say who the surgeon is?
I know of one max facs who does breast implants and also know of 2 dual qualified dentist/doctors who basically work as "cosmetic surgeons" now (not omfs).
unless it specifically says it's a max facs, it could just be someone who did both degrees and maybe decided not to do omfs?

I agree with you though. Personally think max facs should do facial cosmetics if they decide to do it. Surely there's enough cases of facelifts/rhinoplasty/fillers/Botox etc out there on top of the traditional max facs stuff, to not need to dabble in full body procedures. What do I know though 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 

dotwingz

Google Enthusiast
Moderator
What's the SIG year for OMFS all about?
It's doing (medical) surgeries rotations for a year... ED work also for counts for some reason. So between an Internship and a Resident most people complete 12 months of surgical experience for entry into OMFS training

Unfortunately as a foreign medical graduate, your chances are slim to none at scoring an Internship in Australia... internships are allocated roughly in the order of Aus Citizens from Domestic Unis -> Foreign Students from Domestic Unis -> Aus Citizens from Foreign Uni's -> Foreign Citizens from Foreign Uni's. I'd wager I could count the number of people in group 3 on one hand, so you can imagine the chances from group 4.

Although I'm not sure what the case is for RMO positions, but I would guess it would be as competitive.
 

Caffeine

Member
So, hi,

I am an Overseas Dental Student looking to become an OMFS in Australia. So far the following are what I understand about the Australian scene:
1. One has to qualify in Dentistry and Medicine
2. One has to be registered to practice both disciplines in Australia (and automatically NZ)
3. Completing internships in both fields.
4. One has to complete a year of Surgery in General before being eligible to apply to RACDS for a place in OMFS.

The SIG year is what I do not understand. How does that work? I have scoured the net, no detailed explanation still.

I appreciate it if anyone can shed some light.

Xie xie
If your dental degree is not recognized, you will have to pass the ADC theory and practical exams which are extremely challenging to pass with predicted pass rates below 10%. Even if you get into a university OMFS program it's not a guarantee you will become an OMFS as there are fewer spots available and I believe the majority miss out .

You also have to be a PR or an Australian Citizen regardless which will make it a lot more difficult for you currently to consider any pathway if you are not either. Furthermore even in CV scoring if you met the other criteria a lack of a recognized degree can be a disadvantage potentially when applying for the program

Really the question depends on if your degree is recognized , which if it's not your pathway is far more difficult [UK , Canada , US , Ireland , NZ degrees I believe are the only directly recognized dental degrees.] .
 

Unluckydude

Regular Member
So, hi,

I am an Overseas Dental Student looking to become an OMFS in Australia. So far the following are what I understand about the Australian scene:
1. One has to qualify in Dentistry and Medicine
2. One has to be registered to practice both disciplines in Australia (and automatically NZ)
3. Completing internships in both fields.
4. One has to complete a year of Surgery in General before being eligible to apply to RACDS for a place in OMFS.

The SIG year is what I do not understand. How does that work? I have scoured the net, no detailed explanation still.

I appreciate it if anyone can shed some light.

Xie xie
To answer you questions:
1) Yes. You need to have completed formal education in both medicine and dentistry. ADC only accept dental degrees from certain unis in certain countries. They will assess your qualification when you submit your application to sit the ADC exam.
2) Yes, you need to be qualified to practise both dentistry and medicine in Australia. For dentistry, you need to pass the ADC exam. I would assume it's similar for medicine.
3) There is no internship for dentistry in Australia even though many dental specialities require dentists to have two years of full time work experience. But domestic medical graduates need to a complete a year of internship before they get their medical board general registration.
4)
"A full year of surgery in general (SIG) must be completed prior to the commencement of OMS training. Surgical rotations during this year should be undertaken in related surgical disciplines for a minimum of nine months e.g. ENT surgery, orthopaedic surgery, neurosurgery, ophthalmology, general & trauma surgery, plastic surgery, ICU, Anaesthetics and Emergency Medicine. If undertaking a first-year general surgical resident position in Oral & Maxillofacial Surgery, three (3) months to a maximum of six (6) months duration will be considered"

It is basically what dotwingz said.
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If you want to become an OMFS in Australia, you have several options:

1)Complete your dental degree in your country --> Apply to study medicine in Australia as an international student -->sit the ADA exam while you're studying --> do internship, surgery rotations and residency --> apply for OMFS

However, you should be aware that medical education is expensive in Australia. It costs $70-80k a year. You may have to spend another $20-30k on living expenses. You should prepare at least 500k if you want to take this pathway. Australian law requires hospitals to give internships to domestic students first. Some international students in Australia don't get internship post.

2) Become a fully qualified OMFS in your country then apply to have your qualification recognised in Australia. This pathway is tricky and unpredictable. There are people from the UK and Ireland who qualified through this pathway. But I know there are a few Europeans whose application got rejected by the ADC.

"Under Australian government regulations, overseas trained oral and maxillofacial surgeons (OTOMS) must undergo a specialist assessment process by Royal Australasian College of Dental Surgeons (RACDS).

This assessment normally takes up to 3 months (from date of activation) to complete and involves a document-based assessment and may include a face-to-face semi-structured panel interview.

The eligibility criteria for Specialist Assessment are that the candidate must possess a Dental degree and a Medical degree, which must be primary source verified, General registration as a dental practitioner in Australian or New Zealand and a Specialist qualification in the field of OMFS.

The Overseas Trained Specialist Working Group (OTSWG) assesses the application and interview report. Applicants who are deemed partially or substantially comparable to an Australian or New Zealand trained Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon will be required to complete a minimum of 12 months of supervised clinical practice. An OTOMS must complete all requirements within 4 years of commencement, failing which his assessment validity period will expire and their assessment will no longer be valid.

Once all specialist recognition requirements have been completed within the required timeframe, the OTSWG will consider a recommendation that the applicant be granted Fellowship in the Specialty of OMFS (FRACDS(OMS)). This recommendation will go to the College Council for ratification.

3) Finish your dental degree. Apply for OMFS training in Canada or Ireland (you don't need med) and then go through the second pathway. I think it's much easier for Canadian and Irish speciality training to get recognised in Australia. Not too sure about the UK.

What you SHOULD NOT DO is completing your dental and medical education in foreign country and then apply to complete OMFS training in Australia. Your chance of getting it almost nonexistent . Other users on this forum have explained this already.
 
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