Deboza
UNSW MD
Neglible difference in difficulty imo - scores are slightly lower than CSP.
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[2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places
- Thread starter Crow
- Start date
You don’t choose BMP, BMP chooses you…
In all seriousness. You don’t “choose” a BMP when applying, you only open yourself up to receiving an extra 28.5% of places if you weren’t successful getting a CSP. Basically it means if you get a BMP you weren’t getting a CSP at that particular uni in the first place… no harm done in electing to receive one in that case?
It gets a bit funky when you think you will be successful at multiple universities. Sometimes it’s better to elect not to get a BMP at a higher preference university and try to get a CSP at a lower preference instead, because you unfortunately cannot preference BMP and CSP individually in the vast majority of applications
P.S. Deboza the scores are neglible but 28.5% of places are still BMP. I think the scores are only slightly different because that’s the point in the bell curve when gradient really starts to rocket.
P.P.S You need to read this thread before you sign up for a BMP. Based on the question I realised you’re not very well versed in it and it would be silly to enter into a career altering contract not knowing the ins and outs
In all seriousness. You don’t “choose” a BMP when applying, you only open yourself up to receiving an extra 28.5% of places if you weren’t successful getting a CSP. Basically it means if you get a BMP you weren’t getting a CSP at that particular uni in the first place… no harm done in electing to receive one in that case?
It gets a bit funky when you think you will be successful at multiple universities. Sometimes it’s better to elect not to get a BMP at a higher preference university and try to get a CSP at a lower preference instead, because you unfortunately cannot preference BMP and CSP individually in the vast majority of applications
P.S. Deboza the scores are neglible but 28.5% of places are still BMP. I think the scores are only slightly different because that’s the point in the bell curve when gradient really starts to rocket.
P.P.S You need to read this thread before you sign up for a BMP. Based on the question I realised you’re not very well versed in it and it would be silly to enter into a career altering contract not knowing the ins and outs
user_5429942023
Member
Why would you do that? BMP places are always given to 28.5% of domestic medical applicants and are in addition to the CSP places, as a federal requirement. They would assign these places to the bottom 28.5% of the successful applicants, it’s not like UNSW would randomly get some Aus citizens and makes them bonded.
All declaring yourself as an NZ citizen would do is make you ineligible for 28.5% of places, which greatly reduces your chances of an offer. Also, saying that you’re not an Australian citizen or permanent resident would probably cause some issues for you during enrolment and later in the degree. Especially if you lie.
Also, personal opinion here but are you really that averse to going rural for 3 years during your lifetime that you’d misrepresent your citizenship status? It’s not that bad, and if you really really can’t do it then you can always pay it off.
All declaring yourself as an NZ citizen would do is make you ineligible for 28.5% of places, which greatly reduces your chances of an offer. Also, saying that you’re not an Australian citizen or permanent resident would probably cause some issues for you during enrolment and later in the degree. Especially if you lie.
Also, personal opinion here but are you really that averse to going rural for 3 years during your lifetime that you’d misrepresent your citizenship status? It’s not that bad, and if you really really can’t do it then you can always pay it off.
The reason I was thinking about that is because in general I’d prefer a CSP at UNSW, JMP, or WSU, then a BMP. UAC just doesn’t provide a reasonable way to order preferences this way like QTAC does, allowing students to prefer the CSP offers first. What’s more, UNSW not offering the ability to deselect BMP positions just seems like negligent administration? I can’t see why they couldn’t add the option. I understand I’m reducing my chances, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take.
The issues you describe in your 2nd paragraph are what I’m also curious about if you have any information regarding what they may be. As far as I’m aware, citizenship is irrelevant during the course, and when it comes for internships to be allocated I could sign up as an AUS citizen.
Regarding your 3rd paragraph, I’m not against BMPs or rural work. I would just prefer a CSP at another Uni at a lower preferences than a BMP at UNSW. If UNSW’s application doesn’t allow me to be specific regarding all my citizenships, I’m happy to take advantage. However, they could easily solve both that lack of specificity, as well as allowing people to express interest for BMPs manually, like other states and universities do.
user_5429942023
Member
Alright fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.
However, there's still no point in omitting your Australian citizenship. See this page: Local applicants.
So if you don't declare that you're an Australian citizen, then all that will happen in relation to BMP places is that you won't be considered for them. But if you're ranked high enough, you wouldn't be considered for them anyways. It's the same as QTAC or any other med school but you don't specifically have to say that you prefer unbonded places. Hope this helps.
However, there's still no point in omitting your Australian citizenship. See this page: Local applicants.
So if you don't declare that you're an Australian citizen, then all that will happen in relation to BMP places is that you won't be considered for them. But if you're ranked high enough, you wouldn't be considered for them anyways. It's the same as QTAC or any other med school but you don't specifically have to say that you prefer unbonded places. Hope this helps.
I think you have not realised Sobek's objective. They're trying to avoid getting bonded 1st-pref UNSW while being forced to forfeit lower-pref JMP or WSU unbonded.
You can do your return of service anywhere in Australia.
Totally agree. The push here is to look for someone who will want to work especially as a GP but also as a specialist in a rural area. They (selectors) want to stack the medical school class with people who can honestly look them in the eye and say with conviction that that is what they want to do and mean it whether you are bonded or not. There is an oversupply of doctors and specialists in the city. Australia has 3.6 doctors per 1000 population which is higher than UK, Canada and USA. Yet there is still a crying need for doctors in rural areas with mortality 20 percent and 60 percent higher in rural and remote areas respectively. That way the numbers that will move or stay there to work will hopefully increase. This will reduce the reliance of rural Australia on foreign medical graduates. Particularly, these medical graduates will compete with local graduates for training positions and later on for consultant posts.
In addition you will be covered by the 10 year moratorium in the Health Insurance Act
In reference to the post you quoted on saying this^, NZ citizens graduated from Aus med schools are not subject to the 10 year moratorium.
> https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.a...ility-requirements-for-medicare?context=34076
"Under section 19AB of the Health Insurance Act 1973 there’s a 10 year restriction on Medicare provider numbers for:
- overseas trained doctors (OTDs)
- foreign graduates of an accredited medical school (FGAMS).
You’re an FGAMS if you:
- weren’t a permanent resident or citizen of Australia or New Zealand when you enrolled in the medical school."
The $18k per year of med study was 3-4 years ago. Now I think it's around $27k-30k a year.
Btw with the new arrangement there's no longer a BMP contract (to break). You "voluntarily" sign up to be in the BMP program and later, before or after graduation, withdraw from it. The penalty then applies but at least you don't wear the stigma of breaking contract.
Mhmm I see thanks! Do you have any ideas about my other question on whether you get paid more for working in a rural place or a place lacking workforce?
Also, after reading through the entire thread (took me a looong time but I learnt a lot) I would just like to confirm some things I concluded about the disadvantages of rural in regards to career progression and speciality options. So the things I concluded are:
For getting into the speciality program
If you are trying to get into something like "Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, ENT, Plastic" then "you need to be in the big cities to rub shoulders with the powers that be who are instrumental in trainee selection.” meaning that working in a rural area for your internship year or doing any part of the ROS before speciality would be disadvatngeous?
What I don't understand about this is if only your internship year is spent rurally how exactly does that impact how much you have learnt (it's not like I'm going to be doing a lot more things in an urban hospital compared to rural - what I do should be quite similar, maybe a lower range though) or the connections I make (As someone mentioned I wouldn't think that these higher ups care about interns at all). Overall I don't see how working rurally in your intern year affects your CV/skills.
After your fellowship
If you manage to finish your fellowship in a very niche speciality that isn't available in reigional/rural areas then you wouldn't be able to fulfill your ROS and so these specialities aren't an option for you?
Are these correct?
Also, looking at the Health Workforce Locator, focusing on District of Workforce shortages, it seems to me that for most specialities there is a shortage even in metropolitin areas in Western sydney such as Blacktown, fairfield and Auburn etc. This might be obvious but just to confirm does this mean that I can I do my 3 years just serving in these areas? It almost seems too good to be true as a LOT of the specialities namely
"Anaesthetics
Cardiology
Diagnostic Radiology
General Surgery
Medical Oncology
Obstetrics and Gynaecology
Ophthalmology
Psychiatry"
do have shortages here.
Difficult and often disagreed upon question. I think its more of a matter of things stacking up over time, in regards to your knowledge and competencies. If you go to a rural hospital that doesn't offer a rotation (or a metro hospital that doesn't help you facilitate your preferred rotations), then you are obviously less competitive for PHO/unacred reg jobs. In regards to internship jobs I think you're right, that realistically it does not set you back. Caveat being that generally of my understanding most doctors end up doing PGY2 jobs where they did their PGY1, especially in states like NSW where internship is a 2 year contract, so it limits your ability to swap and pick up rotations specific to the specialty you want, which has a flow on effect in later
On the counter argument. Ive heard that within Brisbane for example, hospitals like the RBWH are very unwelcoming to your rotation preferences, so despite being technically stacked with all the rotations you could imagine, the likelihood of getting the exposure and education you picked it for is not guaranteed. An anaesthetics reg friend of mine said that at RBWH getting rotations for that as a JHO/SHO was basically a guaranteed no. Other factors exist like coming from a paper based hospital to an electronic based hospital play a miniature role in position competitiveness too for PGY2 roles.
Also, there is different scope of different rural hospitals. Hospitals like Townsville offer rotations and training in specialties that many large metro hospitals don't, but this is more of an anomaly due to its geography. This is limited for things like Opthal & Neuro Surgery but things like Ortho, ENT can and are facilitated in regional internships (look up "[large regional hospital] internship application guide" to see what rotations are offered.
Its really a very specific question to the hospital and the specialty. Which makes it a hard question to answer, especially because at the end of the day, its hard to predict what you will end up liking in medicine. Even moreso when it comes to predicting the effects of taking a bonded place for job competitiveness for getting on training schemes which might only offer single digit positions nationwide annually specialties like neurosurgery 10+ years before you're even at the stage of applying.
Like to add too that I don't know everything so I would like to hear other members thoughts if they have any. Im only a student and we have plenty of interns which would know more than me
In this situation you either reconsider your specialty choice or you pay it out. Realistically a $100k-$150k bill from the federal government to pay out a bond to undertake a specialty like Neurosurgery is a cost of doing business. I think its unethical to take the BMP with the simple intention of paying it out, but in my view contrary to other some people on this forum and in the field, but this situation is a very different circumstance. 99% of doctors had not completed their bond when the senate reviewed the BMP scheme a couple years ago, read into that as you will.
Yes this is the case. The new BMP program brought it in to be more flexible.
PS: thanks for actually reading the entire thread
!Hey all,
Thoughts on accepting a BMP offer if I think I'll enjoy pursuing medicine?
I'd like to do it but:
1. I don't think my reasons for wanting to do medicine I don't think are particularly unique to medicine (long term patient relationships, the thing where a patient for e.g. comes in with an issue and the doctors talks it through with them and makes a diagnosis (I think that's problem solving in the medical context but I'm not sure), prior experiences both good and bad with doctors, interest in some specialties and areas of biology like immunology, career variety and flexibility both in and outside of medicine, relatively strong job security and good remuneration)
2. I'm mainly worried about what happens if I happen to be one of the students come clinical years that finds it unbearable. Obviously wanting absolute certainty is impossible but the costs of leaving at the point would be financially tough.
I've come off a year of doing IT that I didn't enjoy so my parents have urged me to at least give 1st year a go before trying another degree out but
I don't think 1st year would be very representative which means I'd have to at least stick it out to 4th year. With a mix of savings, YA and money that my parents had set aside for me in a fund for university of sorts when I was born breaking the bond is practically feasible but it feels wrong and also probably isn't very financially smart.
Note: I can't defer unfortunately but if any other undergrad degrees come to mind please let me know. I'm in the midst of creating Plan B's and C's as well as I mull over my feelings but I'll probably make a comment in ungrad degree thread.
for my context that the reason my parents wanted me to give 1st year a go is the fact that it's possible I never get another med offer which I think is a valid concern.
Thoughts on accepting a BMP offer if I think I'll enjoy pursuing medicine?
I'd like to do it but:
1. I don't think my reasons for wanting to do medicine I don't think are particularly unique to medicine (long term patient relationships, the thing where a patient for e.g. comes in with an issue and the doctors talks it through with them and makes a diagnosis (I think that's problem solving in the medical context but I'm not sure), prior experiences both good and bad with doctors, interest in some specialties and areas of biology like immunology, career variety and flexibility both in and outside of medicine, relatively strong job security and good remuneration)
2. I'm mainly worried about what happens if I happen to be one of the students come clinical years that finds it unbearable. Obviously wanting absolute certainty is impossible but the costs of leaving at the point would be financially tough.
I've come off a year of doing IT that I didn't enjoy so my parents have urged me to at least give 1st year a go before trying another degree out but
I don't think 1st year would be very representative which means I'd have to at least stick it out to 4th year. With a mix of savings, YA and money that my parents had set aside for me in a fund for university of sorts when I was born breaking the bond is practically feasible but it feels wrong and also probably isn't very financially smart.
Note: I can't defer unfortunately but if any other undergrad degrees come to mind please let me know. I'm in the midst of creating Plan B's and C's as well as I mull over my feelings but I'll probably make a comment in ungrad degree thread.
for my context that the reason my parents wanted me to give 1st year a go is the fact that it's possible I never get another med offer which I think is a valid concern.
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These are really important questions to ask yourself so, firstly, good on you for thinking things through so thoroughly.
It’s hard to give you much of a meaningful response because, as you’ve pointed out yourself, there’s no way I can give you certainty.
What I can do though is make sure you’re aware of the diversity of career paths a medical degree can bring you, even if you find clinical medicine is not for you. There are non-patient facing positions, academic positions, administration positions, or you could use the degree to get into government policy or even politics (for a very small example of the options). Yes, you’ll have to do the clinical years of your degree and then internship, but from there the options really open up.
So as far as we know, if you withdraw in the 15th year of the RoS limit, you are required to immediately pay back an unindexed $150k-$180k depending on the Uni attended (based off current ~$30k annual government contribution)? And only after withdrawing is interest accrued on any amount not immediately paid?
Theoretically allowing a recently minted consultant to be able to reasonably pay it off?
Theoretically allowing a recently minted consultant to be able to reasonably pay it off?
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Hey LMG,
I've gone away and done some thinking. Maybe too much actually. I think the blunt and simple answer to my situation would be: "okay then resit the UCAT if you want to do medicine 'your way' with the level of no strings attached certainty you desire".
It's just that it feels so...dumb? And if I'm honest I'm also in a bit of denial after all the effort put in to get here.
Giving up a guaranteed offer for something I want to do in the hopes of securing something better definitely feels irrational especially since I know by experience there’s no guarantee I ever land another offer. There's also the tricky situation every year of some bonded offers being upgraded to unbonded so do you just accept that risk and only apply for unbonded for uni's where that's an option for the guarantee?
I am lucky to be in the position that I should be able to pay off the 150-180k so a part of my brain is still screaming at me to just do it. Give it a go, try your absolute best and if life doesn't go to plan it is what it is. I mean how indicative is 1st year medicine? Is it enough to sort of feel out medicine? I'm one of those "once they're in they stick it out types unless it's deeply unbearable" so I don't know if that would work for or against me here.
I guess it comes down to whether you consider a med degree worth ~150-180k and I don’t think any degree is worth that but maybe I’m wrong. I mean that's working towards a house deposit in some states or areas right?
I know a medical degree opens up a lot of doors (it's one of the reason's why I wanted to do medicine since you had solid exit opportunities should life not pan out) but I've also seen the experiences of some users on MSO and PagingDr where getting to the point where you could actually do that turned out to be a struggle.
*sigh*. This definitely feels like one of those fork in the road closing a door to a potential future decision and I'm terrified honestly.
Why do you think you won't enjoy it once you get to clinical years? or rather, be any more likely than anyone else?
Ultimately to ease your nerves a little bit, getting a CSP offer wouldn't put you in too much of a different position. If you frame it in terms of opportunity cost, every year you spend doing medicine costs ~70k/year (Aus median income, you would likely earn higher) you could earn working a job elsewhere, while the CSP payback is ~30k/year.
Realistically no one actually knows what they're getting into absolutely, and kind of have to pull the trigger of blind faith wether or not they actually like doing medicine. Its hard to really know until you get somewhat deep into your degree unfortunately.
Either way, theres something for everybody in medicine. You might hate seeing patients, thought about pathology?
EDIT: It almost kinda looks like youre looking for a rational excuse not to medicine. Which is fair enough if you're not into it.
Ultimately to ease your nerves a little bit, getting a CSP offer wouldn't put you in too much of a different position. If you frame it in terms of opportunity cost, every year you spend doing medicine costs ~70k/year (Aus median income, you would likely earn higher) you could earn working a job elsewhere, while the CSP payback is ~30k/year.
Realistically no one actually knows what they're getting into absolutely, and kind of have to pull the trigger of blind faith wether or not they actually like doing medicine. Its hard to really know until you get somewhat deep into your degree unfortunately.
Either way, theres something for everybody in medicine. You might hate seeing patients, thought about pathology?
EDIT: It almost kinda looks like youre looking for a rational excuse not to medicine. Which is fair enough if you're not into it.