Fannnnnnn666
USYD BSci/MD V
In one document online it said that the Total CSP payment for medicine is 27K
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[2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places
- Thread starter Crow
- Start date
Just found the same link. Thank you. It would be good if more up to date information was available. I can’t find anything beyond those two documents (with the very different figures).
Fannnnnnn666
USYD BSci/MD V
![[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] [2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places](https://data.medstudentsonline.com.au/attachments/3/3896-6cfcf16969aa8b52db0dfb336d6699e3.jpg?hash=ZNtHnm1VNT "[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] [2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places")
![[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] [2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places](https://data.medstudentsonline.com.au/attachments/3/3897-5c68dd4a0db365375351e1c53e04d45b.jpg?hash=oEmgcerzT9 "[MedStudentsOnline.com.au] [2020 entry and beyond] Guide to Bonded Medical Places")
ETA: where is that table from?
Fannnnnnn666
USYD BSci/MD V
Fannnnnnn666
USYD BSci/MD V
On page 20 I followed the link they provided and found the 2021 Table, please correct me if I found the wrong thing haha
I think the different figures for 2017 in the two documents may be because they belong to the different BMP scheme, i.e. 2015 and before, and 2016 and after.
I followed the same and it looks like 2021 is also $27k, is that what you also found?
Ive followed the same thing you've done and youre absolutely correct. They have seem to simplified the repayment to simply the CSP amount.
So yes is $27k for this year, 24 for last, 23.5 before that, good move by the government tbh
BTW: Heres the link for anyone following on. Funding Clusters and Indexed Rates | Department of Education, Skills and Employment
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After reading about the negative implications of the BMP, I'm a bit put off and worried.
I read through this thread about the buy out but now I'm extremely confused.
When can we even buy out the contract? Since the prices are increasing, does it mean we should buy it out now or can we only buy it out once we're finished med school (and then pay the CSP allocated for each year)?
Also, what are the stages we go through once we graduate and when is the best time to buy out the contract? (I know someone said something about this but I had trouble interpreting it and had no idea what they meant).
Does this mean that the best time to buy out the contract is between: the end of med school - just before finishing speciality training?
Well the prices are increasing for every year of medical school - so it doesn’t matter when you break it off, because that price is set in stone (i believe it’s also indexed to inflation)
The stages you go through as a doctor are something like this
- Medical Students, you probably know what this is
- Intern, a doctor who is not allowed to practice unsupervised. They do terms in medicine, surgery, emergency medicine,
- Resident, still junior doctors who can work independent and do CMO work but typically decide to stay in the hospital system and gain relevant experience for their application to their speciality training scheme of choice
- Registrar, this is the training section. Where you actually train to be the specialist you want to be. If this means surgery, you would be admitting patients, performing procedures under supervision, and sitting a shit tonne of exams
- Consultant, you are actually a fully trained doctor. You passed all your exams and terms as a registrar.
The issue is that registrars for some positions are very competitive. Some surgery registrar positions have an average intake at the PGY7+ level (post graduate year 5 - aka they did their intern, resident, and then typically 5 years as an unaccredited registrar - essentially a non training version of a registrar, or research, or anything else to boost their CV). Cardiology in QLD had most registrars above the PGY6+, etc, etc
So when you’re applying for those positions, being of the same hospital, knowing the big name doctors in the college, and generally trying become a member of the “boys club”, going to larger hospitals is generally a positive - and these are in more metro areas to service more people.
The quote i quoted from ben around here somewhere was that for ENT Surgeon (extremely competitive) position in his hospital network, for the last 3 or so years, they would only hire somebody from their own hospital for the registrar position.
So it’s not the greatest set of circumstances at the moment, but the government has realised that doubling the amount of medical school places didn’t fix the doctor shortage, and that restrictive contracts like the old BMP wouldn’t either.
So in the new contract
- you can work in Modified Monash Model 2 areas, which are outer regional, and generally nice areas
- you can work anywhere with a workforce shortage (a very good thing), because a lot of the surrounding areas around large hospitals are under serviced. Take western sydney for example, despite being the site of a massive tertiary hospital, blacktown is still under serviced for many specialties including anaesthesia, surgery, etc. Also, since the surrounding areas of concord/westmead are under serviced, you could set up your practice as your place of primary residence and do VMO work in these hospitals - an idea i know would work for surgery, but i’m not too sure about physicians.
And also, the government has recognised that doctors aren’t just latte sipping hipsters who will only live in cities, and they would be willing to move rural if the opportunities presented itself. So a lot of money is going in right now to establish medical hubs in more regional areas, starting with opening medical schools (and importantly shifting CSPs to them - not creating them and creating even more doctors) and constructions to hospitals.
So in summary: I think there are issues with the philosophy behind many parts of bonded scheme, but ultimately the flexibility of the new scheme and the change of tone from the government should make it more doable in the future.
Also, you should at least try rural before you break the contract. You shouldn’t be walking into this, thinking of the best way to break the contract. You should be thinking of either scenario, and how working rural may be advantageous to you.
The stages you go through as a doctor are something like this
- Medical Students, you probably know what this is
- Intern, a doctor who is not allowed to practice unsupervised. They do terms in medicine, surgery, emergency medicine,
- Resident, still junior doctors who can work independent and do CMO work but typically decide to stay in the hospital system and gain relevant experience for their application to their speciality training scheme of choice
- Registrar, this is the training section. Where you actually train to be the specialist you want to be. If this means surgery, you would be admitting patients, performing procedures under supervision, and sitting a shit tonne of exams
- Consultant, you are actually a fully trained doctor. You passed all your exams and terms as a registrar.
The issue is that registrars for some positions are very competitive. Some surgery registrar positions have an average intake at the PGY7+ level (post graduate year 5 - aka they did their intern, resident, and then typically 5 years as an unaccredited registrar - essentially a non training version of a registrar, or research, or anything else to boost their CV). Cardiology in QLD had most registrars above the PGY6+, etc, etc
So when you’re applying for those positions, being of the same hospital, knowing the big name doctors in the college, and generally trying become a member of the “boys club”, going to larger hospitals is generally a positive - and these are in more metro areas to service more people.
The quote i quoted from ben around here somewhere was that for ENT Surgeon (extremely competitive) position in his hospital network, for the last 3 or so years, they would only hire somebody from their own hospital for the registrar position.
So it’s not the greatest set of circumstances at the moment, but the government has realised that doubling the amount of medical school places didn’t fix the doctor shortage, and that restrictive contracts like the old BMP wouldn’t either.
So in the new contract
- you can work in Modified Monash Model 2 areas, which are outer regional, and generally nice areas
- you can work anywhere with a workforce shortage (a very good thing), because a lot of the surrounding areas around large hospitals are under serviced. Take western sydney for example, despite being the site of a massive tertiary hospital, blacktown is still under serviced for many specialties including anaesthesia, surgery, etc. Also, since the surrounding areas of concord/westmead are under serviced, you could set up your practice as your place of primary residence and do VMO work in these hospitals - an idea i know would work for surgery, but i’m not too sure about physicians.
And also, the government has recognised that doctors aren’t just latte sipping hipsters who will only live in cities, and they would be willing to move rural if the opportunities presented itself. So a lot of money is going in right now to establish medical hubs in more regional areas, starting with opening medical schools (and importantly shifting CSPs to them - not creating them and creating even more doctors) and constructions to hospitals.
So in summary: I think there are issues with the philosophy behind many parts of bonded scheme, but ultimately the flexibility of the new scheme and the change of tone from the government should make it more doable in the future.
Also, you should at least try rural before you break the contract. You shouldn’t be walking into this, thinking of the best way to break the contract. You should be thinking of either scenario, and how working rural may be advantageous to you.
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Hey chinaski, quick question:
If you had a BMP under the current contract, would you buy it out?
I'm still struggling to think about how going rural could be advantageous to me. Based on previous discussion in this thread, it seems like going rural will limit my training in terms of what speciality I want to pursue, as well as being something that would hold me back from my peers who would have had years of working in urban areas and building up their resume for job applications.
In my current position, I would have no choice but to buy it out, because my subspecialty is not viable in a rural area.
If I were applying for medical school now, I would not apply for a bonded place in the first place, because I wouldn't be willing to commit to one and I don't think it's ethical to buy it out.
The discussion of the last few weeks is about how rural and metro medicine diverge, working in a metro area is very different than a regional or rural one. Job experience isnt universal, working as a sub-specialist in a large hospital presents a very different set of skills than a rural generalist may have. Obviously going rural isn't going to advantageous to working in metropolitan areas, but not everything in Medicine is about metropolitan medicine.
There are as many pros and cons of working in regional areas, as there are in working in metropolitan areas. You will find greater autonomy in rural areas, a diverse patient mix, and it could be argued you could get a more diverse case mix (im thinking generalist in rural area vs sub specialist in metro area).
Many rural areas are a gold mine, these are places with good schools, hospitals, jobs, communities, etc - which I'd argue is most of rural and regional Australia (at least population weighted) - they aren't particularly underserviced but they still do count for BMP repayment - e.g. Coffs is MMM3, Port Mac is MMM3, Dubbo is MMM3, Tamworth, Orange, Bathurst.... the list goes on really. Places like Dubbo have a fantastic set of medical facilities, but would count for a Bond Repayment, and would be a nice place to settle down (imo of course)
What im trying to say - is that you may walk into medicine thinking that you want to be a subspecialised pediatric cardiothoracic surgeon, of which there'd only be less jobs across the country than I could count on one hand, so you couldnt possibly find a job in a rural town, but you may find that you like the lifestyle regional and rural towns offer
Thank you for your response.
To be honest, I had no idea what the major negative implications of a BMP could be until reading your posts in this thread, so thank you for the information as well - I think it definitely is something to consider.
I guess it would be different for Post-Grad Entry as they would be more mature and would have time to think about the pros and cons, but I guess I'm also mature enough to do those...
brownpanda69
Member
Just wondering if there are known plans to reform the BMP scheme again in the distant future?
Whereabouts do you find such in depth information regarding the PGY years of cardiology regsistrars in QLD? Is it through medinav? (because if so its truly very annoying that none of the other states have such a comprehensive website like theirs)
This would be something to write to your local MP about if it affects you that much, and I haven't seen any recent news on the subject.
That said, I think the scheme needs reform in the sense that there needs to be a removal of the ability to buy out of the contract. Having such a clause defeats the purpose of the scheme and creates a two tiered system for those who can afford to buy it out and those who cannot.