General Medicine Entry Discussion and Advice Requests

[A1]

Yes, sorry I wasn't specific. my friend dropped out of an undergrad med program and is now doing gamsat for a post grad place. just wanted to make sure they were on the right track and that this is actually viable.

So far I have only seen this exclusion at 2 undergrad schools UNSW & WSU (most other undergrad schools don't need this clause since they don't accept med or non-med uni student applicants anyway). I have read the GEMSAS guide, did not see it stated for any graduate schools.

 

[Crow]

I have read the GEMSAS guide, did not see it stated for any graduate schools.

I can't vouch for the graduate entry schools specifically, but I do know that the GEMSAS application form asks you to declare whether you have been previously enrolled in a medical degree or not. I'm not sure whether this is purely for statistical purposes or whether there are some schools which have an exclusion clause +/- want to do a special interview for candidates who are attempting to do medical school again after previously dropping out, but I am guessing it's more likely to be the latter?

As per advice above, you'd really want to contact the specific graduate entry schools in question to be sure before committing to the GAMSAT pathway.

 

[A1]

Adding to Crow's reply above, Mana (MSO's Admin) half completed Adelaide undergrad med then later went on to Notre Dame Sydney graduate entry. So it is possible at least at some graduate schools.

A1 What's your advice on undergrad UNSW med course vs WSU course?

Sorry what advice are you after?

 

[chinaski]

Adding to Crow's reply above, Mana (MSO's Admin) half completed Adelaide undergrad med then later went on to Notre Dame Sydney graduate entry. So it is possible at least at some graduate schools.

Probably better to refer to up-to-date guidelines, rather than citing historical records (that often change).

 

[DrDrLMG!]

(I am asking on behalf of my friend with permission who doesn't want to make an MSO account)

Tertiary study background:
- completed a Bachelors degree in Science with an appalling GPA 2.5/7 in 2019. This was a three year degree completed over the course of 5 years (he took some FT and PT study). The low GPA is because during his first three years he experienced some extremely bad family issues causing him to fail almost ALL of his units but he never took any action upon this although I mentioned he should have applied for special considerations (too late now). Albeit he did complete his degree and was award the BSc.
- started a master's degree, in-completed but sadly failed all his unit due to collaborating with another student on a 5% quiz (he has deeply regretted his actions and wrote a long apology letter but the university is determined on failing ALL of his unit in the course as its a postgraduate degree where punishments are non-negotiable) He is currently applying for consideration for his fails to be ungraded fails so it wouldn't show on WAM and GPA records.

ATAR history:
- 98.7 back in 2013
GAMASAT histroy:
- I believe average 68 back in 2014 (?)
UCAT history:
- 2600ish in 2020
^ his original goal was to attempt for JMP with this master's degree score (he was averaging around 75~85% before he failed everything and then gave up on UCAT)

Nonetheless, I think we can all see there is no other way for getting into medicine aside from starting a new degree for 3 years to 'erase' his bad academic history then take GAMSAT (please correct me if I am wrong!).

He is now 24 years old with no accredited course (the bachelors degree was major in pharmacology) and no permanent full time job with limited job prospect. He is worried about his age - lets say with the absolute best outcome he will enter medicine at 27 then graduate as doctor at 31-2ish. We all know getting into medicine is hard and not guaranteed.

I guess in summary what he wants to know is if anyone knows a shorter method to get into medicine, are there any university that would overlook his bad performance provided he performs exceptionally in the new course he enrolls in. To add, with his tertiary GPA (I guess its essentially a zero at this point) can he even apply for any bachelor's degree since he technically doesn't meet the threshold, or should he try to apply through mature age student, how lenient are university's with this aspect. Then finally, what would be a good bachelor's degree to do provided that he doesn't get into medicine at 27 but still has good job prospect.

He told me his dream is to become a doctor and he will keep trying for the foreseeable future, but he also feels bad because he has to support his family financially and he can't keep delaying looking for a job.

Thank you all for reading this and if theres any advice or general comments please let me know or message me.

(For the Moderators please delete anything you find unsuitable for this forum or if theres a better page to post this please move it to there, thank you so much for all your hard work)

Firstly, age is the least of his worries. He should move on from the thought of that being a barrier.

I honestly don't think there is an option for him that doesn't include at least starting, and possibly finishing, and doing well in a new bachelor degree. There are 'shorter' pathways (such as doing a Grad Dip/Cert at Flinders) but I'm not sure that his GPA of 2.5 would get him into one (plus they are very expensive and typically FFP) and non-standard entry (see below).

Given his history, I would be very wary of recommending a return to university for the sole purpose of getting into medicine. Even for people with outstanding academic records, the chances are stacked against them. If he were to return to university, then I'd recommend he do so with the aim of completing a career degree (ie. nursing, but there are plenty of other options) then using his results along the way to try for medicine, but knowing that he is (statistically) unlikely to be successful and that it won't all be for nothing as he'll have a degree with good job prospects and opportunities at the end of it.

In fact, there are universities (including UTas, but also others) that offer nursing as a 'fast-track' degree, which means he could have it completed in two years and either be moving from that to medicine (if very fortunate) or moving into a nursing career. If he was fortunate with medicine, he could also then use nursing as a way to support himself while he sat GAMSAT/did his application, and then continued studying (see more detailed explanation in below post).

For example! As I said, there are other career degree options.

For non-standard entry, he could use a single year GPA from a new degree and a UCAT score to apply. If he was successful first go, he wouldn't need to finish the new degree and could switch straight to medicine. This is BEST CASE scenario (time-wise) and not particularly likely for a number of (mostly statistical) reasons.

For graduate entry, he'd need to finish the new degree and sit GAMSAT.

The other big issue may be the academic integrity breach. I honestly have no idea what the long-term repercussions of this are (if any). Perhaps someone else can weigh in on that part. biom perhaps (due to teaching experience, not actual experience, just to be clear!)?

ETA: I am interested to know what degree/result he used for his Masters application, as I wouldn't have thought his academic history at the end of his BSc would have been competitive for post-graduate level study.

ETA2: I've just had a look at UTAS' academic integrity info and it looks like the worst case scenario for the highest level breach is a 6 month exclusion from the university. High level breaches were things like fraud/forgery and contract cheating (paying someone else to do your assignment/exam). It looks like your friend's breach would be considered intermediate at UTAS which would result in the fail and having to complete an academic integrity module before continuing studies. This doesn't seem like it would be a barrier at all to re-embarking on future studies.

 

[flying_pig]

Firstly, age is the least of his worries. He should move on from the thought of that being a barrier.

I honestly don't think there is an option for him that doesn't include at least starting, and possibly finishing, and doing well in a new bachelor degree. There are 'shorter' pathways (such as doing a Grad Dip/Cert at Flinders) but I'm not sure that his GPA of 2.5 would get him into one (plus they are very expensive and typically FFP) and non-standard entry (see below).

Given his history, I would be very wary of recommending a return to university for the sole purpose of getting into medicine. Even for people with outstanding academic records, the chances are stacked against them. If he were to return to university, then I'd recommend he do so with the aim of completing a career degree (ie. nursing, but there are plenty of other options) then using his results along the way to try for medicine, but knowing that he is (statistically) unlikely to be successful and that it won't all be for nothing as he'll have a degree with good job prospects and opportunities at the end of it.

In fact, there are universities (including UTas, but also others) that offer nursing as a 'fast-track' degree, which means he could have it completed in two years and either be moving from that to medicine (if very fortunate) or moving into a nursing career. If he was fortunate with medicine, he could also then use nursing as a way to support himself while he continued studying.

For example! As I said, there are other career degree options.

For non-standard entry, he could use a single year GPA from a new degree and a UCAT score to apply. If he was successful first go, he wouldn't need to finish the new degree and could switch straight to medicine. This is BEST CASE scenario (time-wise) and not particularly likely for a number of (mostly statistical) reasons.

For graduate entry, he'd need to finish the new degree and sit GAMSAT.

The other big issue may be the academic integrity breach. I honestly have no idea what the long-term repercussions of this are (if any). Perhaps someone else can weigh in on that part. biom perhaps (due to teaching experience, not actual experience, just to be clear!)?

ETA: I am interested to know what degree/result he used for his Masters application, as I wouldn't have thought his academic history at the end of his BSc would have been competitive for post-graduate level study.

ETA2: I've just had a look at UTAS' academic integrity info and it looks like the worst case scenario for the highest level breach is a 6 month exclusion from the university. High level breaches were things like fraud/forgery and contract cheating (paying someone else to do your assignment/exam). It looks like your friend's breach would be considered intermediate at UTAS which would result in the fail and having to complete an academic integrity module before continuing studies. This doesn't seem like it would be a barrier at all to re-embarking on future studies.

I'll definitely pass this onto him. Completing a career degree would be the better option as you have suggested. He was thinking Engineering or IT or allied health like physio, oral health or OT. But both him and I didn't even think about Nursing! Let alone a 2 year accelerated nursing course! So we will be researching further into that option. On another note, how would a 2-year accelerated course be counted in terms of graduate entry/GAMSAT since its GPA derived from 3 years? (I do remember seeing a post about this but I can't find it)
Thank you

 

[dotwingz]

Some schools dont allow 2 year accelerated degrees for graduate entry medicine. The GEMSAS guide has it listed under every school whether they will take it

https://gemsas.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2021-Medicine-GEMSAS-Admissions-Guide-v1.7.pdf

 

[DrDrLMG!]

I'll definitely pass this onto him. Completing a career degree would be the better option as you have suggested. He was thinking Engineering or IT or allied health like physio, oral health or OT. But both him and I didn't even think about Nursing! Let alone a 2 year accelerated nursing course! So we will be researching further into that option. On another note, how would a 2-year accelerated course be counted in terms of graduate entry/GAMSAT since its GPA derived from 3 years? (I do remember seeing a post about this but I can't find it)
Thank you

Fast-track/accelerated degrees are typically still 3.0FTE degrees (as is the case for nursing) so they are not 'technically' 2 year bachelor degrees, even though they are done over two years.

ANU, Deakin, UNDF, UNDS, UQ, UWA, and UoW all explicitly state (in the GEMSAS guide) that they accept these degrees for graduate entry medicine.

Griffith and Macq both say that they accept 3.0FTE degrees but they don't make an explicit statement about fast-track degrees either way. I'd take this to mean they accept them, but I'd also double check with a quick email to the respective admissions teams.

I couldn't find anything relevant in the UMelb part (neither for or against) so, again, I'd email them.

TL;DR: By and large, fast-track degrees (which are usually done over summer as well, so there is no break from studies) are considered 3.0FTE degrees and are fine for graduate entry med.

ETA: the one thing to keep in mind for fast track degrees is that for some (all?) medicine courses, you need to have completed the degree before you can apply, which would mean graduating in Jan/Feb, sitting GAMSAT in March, and then applying for entry for the following year, if that makes sense. So the time it takes to get into medicine isn't any faster, BUT it would give your mate a year of working while they do GAMSAT and get their applications ready, which can be very handy for the wallet!!

 

[Unluckydude]

The other big issue may be the academic integrity breach. I honestly have no idea what the long-term repercussions of this are (if any). Perhaps someone else can weigh in on that part. biom perhaps (due to teaching experience, not actual experience, just to be clear!)?


ETA2: I've just had a look at UTAS' academic integrity info and it looks like the worst case scenario for the highest level breach is a 6 month exclusion from the university. High level breaches were things like fraud/forgery and contract cheating (paying someone else to do your assignment/exam). It looks like your friend's breach would be considered intermediate at UTAS which would result in the fail and having to complete an academic integrity module before continuing studies. This doesn't seem like it would be a barrier at all to re-embarking on future studies.

The admissions staff told my friend that applicants who have a history academic misconduct are allowed to apply for UNSW med and WSU med. Not sure about other unis though.

 

[Crow]

The admissions staff told my friend that applicants who have a history academic misconduct are allowed to apply for UNSW med and WSU med. Not sure about other unis though.

I know USYD has a “special additional interview” for those who have been excluded from uni for different reasons - basically for them to explain themselves and be evaluated by the admissions team. Whether other universities do this, I’m not sure.

 

[flying_pig]

ETA: I am interested to know what degree/result he used for his Masters application, as I wouldn't have thought his academic history at the end of his BSc would have been competitive for post-graduate level study.

ETA2: I've just had a look at UTAS' academic integrity info and it looks like the worst case scenario for the highest level breach is a 6 month exclusion from the university. High level breaches were things like fraud/forgery and contract cheating (paying someone else to do your assignment/exam). It looks like your friend's breach would be considered intermediate at UTAS which would result in the fail and having to complete an academic integrity module before continuing studies. This doesn't seem like it would be a barrier at all to re-embarking on future studies.

The post-graduate course's entry requirement was only based on Level 3 core units and meeting the a WAM of at least 60% in the level 3 units
and thank you for looking through UTAS' information for us, i'll pass the message onto him as well.

 

[orangebaba]

Hi, I have a friend who was excluded from UTAS med in their second year (they failed the year twice). They still want to be a doctor. I don't think they can directly do UCAT and apply due to a terrible gpa, so they have started a bsc (in science i think? -> backup = teaching). What are the best options? post-grad/undergrad? And do med unis care if you apply to them after previously being excluded from a med program? thanks!

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Hi, I have a friend who was excluded from UTAS med in their second year (they failed the year twice). They still want to be a doctor. I don't think they can directly do UCAT and apply due to a terrible gpa, so they have started a bsc (in science i think? -> backup = teaching). What are the best options? post-grad/undergrad? And do med unis care if you apply to them after previously being excluded from a med program? thanks!

Yes, for non-standard entry your friend would be limited to JMP on the basis of having already been enrolled in a medical degree, I believe.

I am less familiar with the graduate entry pathways. An old MSO regular got into UNDS after not completing an undergrad MBBS, but that was a few years ago now and may not be representative. They should carefully read the GEMSAS guide and contact the graduate entry universities they are interested in to confirm their policies.

 

[Mana]

I'm still around, just busy!

My advice for those in similar situations is echoed in the above comments from the other MSO mods. It is very difficult for universities to accept poor academic marks over students who have very good ones (of which there is no shortage each year), so unfortunately failing out of a degree usually means you have to prove that you are academically prepared for medicine by proving that you can perform well in another course, and of course it makes sense for that course to also be a career pathway in the very likely case that you don't get in to medicine.

As for me - while I wouldn't be using me as an example of a pathway that is readily available (it really isn't) - when I ended up not completing the undergraduate MBBS, I was given an exit degree because I had completed more than half. Not all undergraduate universities that offer medicine would do this, but I am fairly certain at least that the 6 year courses would if you completed more than 3 years (of which there are only two - Adelaide, which gives you a B Health Sci, and UNSW, which gives you a B Med Sci).

I was able to apply using this exit degree and asked for the degree's GPA requirement to be waived on the basis that the degree had non-graded passes rather than marks which a GPA could be calculated from (a non-graded pass otherwise would be a GPA of 4) and that the degree was a medical degree.

This is NOT the same as using graded marks from a non-medical degree - this is unlikely to get you any special consideration by virtue of the fact that there are many other candidates with better marks applying.

Marks from a medical degree may be looked upon more favourably, but these are case-by-case, and your mileage obviously varies based on university admissions policies.

However, remember that for graduate entry there are "portfolio" universities, where there is a large weighting on the portfolio rather than GPA/GAMSAT/interview. The portfolio university was my pathway; I suspect this might have made the difference.

 

[chinaski]

So you are saying that reputation means nothing at all? Surely if a student graduate from Oxford University applied for a position, employers would think more highly of them compared to someone who comes from a university that no-one has heard of... I do get the point you're trying to make, but surely it would make some difference? E.g. Melbourne University (old and pretty reputable university) compared to Wollongong University (relatively new university).

Nope. Only thing that makes a difference is the state in which you graduate - if you take up a CSP, that's the state you'll be guaranteed a job as an intern. Your specific alma mater means jack.

 

[E_N]

Nope. Only thing that makes a difference is the state in which you graduate - if you take up a CSP, that's the state you'll be guaranteed a job as an intern. Your specific alma mater means jack.

Right-o. But you can transfer to different states after specialisation?

 

[chinaski]

You can apply for a job anywhere you want. But again, in Australia, when you apply for a job as a specialist, nobody cares where you want to medical school.

 

[E_N]

Yeah, but come on dude. Seriously if a student went to Harvard University graduated with honours and another student went to JCU with an okayish mark they wouldn't care?

 

[ucatboy]

Yeah, but come on dude. Seriously if a student went to Harvard University graduated with honours and another student went to JCU with an okayish mark they wouldn't care?

Ironically, the JCU graduate will be guaranteed a job after graduation in Australia, while the Harvard graduate (IMG) won't. Why are so infatuated with prestige?

 

[dotwingz]

Yeah, but come on dude. Seriously if a student went to Harvard University graduated with honours and another student went to JCU with an okayish mark they wouldn't care?

Youre talking to a subspecialist who has spent many years working as a real doctor not one you may see on television. For the point of practice in Australia the JCU student would be much better off than the one in Harvard, and its quite offensive to suggest that a JCU is worth any less than a harvard one