UCAT Results Discussion 2019

[TKAO]

Nah the fact is most of the students come from interstate; so Queenslanders have a hard time finding a med spot in their own state regardless.

Huh? UQ has a significant amount of people coming from interstate compared to within state? That's new to me. Why is that so? And moreover, where do the instate Queenslanders go if they don't make it to either Griffith or UQ because their ATAR is just out of the cutoff for Griffith and their UCAT is slightly outside the range of UQ? JCU is their only instate option?

 

[Cal]

Huh? UQ has a significant amount of people coming from interstate compared to within state? That's new to me. Why is that so? And moreover, where do the instate Queenslanders go if they don't make it to either Griffith or UQ because their ATAR is just out of the cutoff for Griffith and their UCAT is slightly outside the range of UQ? JCU is their only instate option?

Yeah because uq has no interview, people who do poorly in the interview but have high enough scores go to UQ and the same with Griffith. Anyone who has a high enough atar but is slightly lower than unimelb and usyd, goes to Griffith because it is an attainable atar. JCU is a little better because they prefer northern Queenslanders in a way but metro Queenslanders get no benefit out of it and it is unlucky since the two unis that are most accessible uq and Griffith are considered fall backs for interstate students with high scores, rather than Queensland dominant spots.

 

[Crow]

Huh? UQ has a significant amount of people coming from interstate compared to within state? That's new to me. Why is that so? And moreover, where do the instate Queenslanders go if they don't make it to either Griffith or UQ because their ATAR is just out of the cutoff for Griffith and their UCAT is slightly outside the range of UQ? JCU is their only instate option?

Worth pointing out that QLD makes up a relatively smaller part of the population than Vic and NSW, so it makes sense for QLD school-leavers to make up a relatively smaller number of Australian medical students on the whole. But yes, it is challenging for those who are unable to move interstate.

 

[Deleted member 37402]

I don't think so. Most of your scaling and whatnot is based on how well you do in your HSC compared to your school assessments. All because you are good in your school when compared to all your peers does not guarantee you anything for your HSC. On the whole, an 'easier' school is more likely to get poorer in HSC, and therefore get scaled down. However, this is only on the whole. You are at the top of your school's bell curve and, if you don't mess up HSC, you should be ok with scaling. Nothing means game-over at this point. Not until you do your HSC.

If the weak students throw in the towel, the 2nd ranked student is worse off than the 1st ranked but only a little, no way it means game over.

We need a lot of maths to understand how this works. The three basic rules are (1) the 1st ranked gets their internal mark adjusted to match the cohort's highest HSC exam mark, (2) from 2nd ranked down get adjusted such that the cohort's total internal marks equals their total exam marks, (3) they are also adjusted proportionally (quadratically not linearly) to the spacings between their internal marks.

An example: internal marks 1st ranked 90, 2nd ranked 88; exam marks highest 91, total pool only 3/4 (exaggerated) of total internal.
Rule (1) 1st ranked internal mark is adjusted from 90 to 91
Rule (2) on its own would adjust 2nd ranked internal mark from 88 to 66 (being 3/4 given above)
Rule (3) says 2nd ranked was only 2 internal marks below 1st it can't now be given 66 vs 91. The quadratic formula they use will probably come out to about 85.

Thank you for answering my question. I learned more today so really appreciate it.

 

[TKAO]

Worth pointing out that QLD makes up a relatively smaller part of the population than Vic and NSW, so it makes sense for QLD school-leavers to make up a relatively smaller number of Australian medical students on the whole. But yes, it is challenging for those who are unable to move interstate.

I always thought that they had some sort of unspoken bias towards local residents, like Curtin/UWA/Monash. These all give out offers to their local applicants first before setting aside spots for interstate ones that will be interviewed at a later date. My condolences Queenslanders, it appears as though you have gotten the short end of the stick for this particular one.

 

[lottodo]

I always thought that they had some sort of unspoken bias towards local residents, like Curtin/UWA/Monash. These all give out offers to their local applicants first before setting aside spots for interstate ones that will be interviewed at a later date. My condolences Queenslanders, it appears as though you have gotten the short end of the stick for this particular one.

Thanks for understanding this. so basically for queenslander there are only 30 guaranteed places . i.e at Griffith but out of that 28.5% for rural candidates.
Usually 75% of UQ cohort coming from interstate. 25% QLD.
Now you can imagine how many places that are allocated to metropolitan queenslander in QLD unis (griffith, sunshine coast & UQ). I would say approximately 30 - 40 places : ( (?).
I wish I was born near UWS.

 

[A1]

I always thought that they had some sort of unspoken bias towards local residents, like Curtin/UWA/Monash.

Other than giving EAS only to WA schools Curtin does not appear to bias toward locals. This Sydney student didn't get any NSW interview yet got one then a place offer with Curtin with 98.7+83%ile
> UMAT 2017 Results Discussion
> Curtin MMI Interview?

These all give out offers to their local applicants first before setting aside spots for interstate ones that will be interviewed at a later date.

The main idea of interviewing interstate applicants at a later date is this date is deliberately after their home state main offer round, so if they already receive a home state offer they can save the travel time/costs. It's not meant to be a mechanism for bias, unless the school purposely raises the interview cutoff mark for interstate or sets aside too few places for them. I'd like to see proof of this for UWA.

 

[TKAO]

Other than giving EAS only to WA schools Curtin does not appear to bias toward locals. This Sydney student didn't get any NSW interview yet got one then a place offer with Curtin with 98.7+83%ile
> UMAT 2017 Results Discussion
> Curtin MMI Interview?



The main idea of interviewing interstate applicants at a later date is this date is deliberately after their home state main offer round, so if they already receive a home state offer they can save the travel time/costs. It's not meant to be a mechanism for bias, unless the school purposely raises the interview cutoff mark for interstate or sets aside too few places for them. I'd like to see proof of this for UWA.

My bad. Curtin's criteria for an interview is not necessarily very high for interstate people, but so too for in state people as well.

Isn't the system of inviting people after first round offers have been sent out inherently bias? If UWA/Curtin was to set aside x number of spots for interstate residents, what happens if there are more people who are above the threshold for an offer than there are offers to go around? Would that not mean that the lowest person that receives an interstate offer may be higher than the lowest person who receives a local offer? This would then mean that you would need a higher score as an interstate resident than a local one. The only way to potentially mitigate this is to invite only the exact amount of people to an interstate interview as there are offers spots, thereby making sure that even if all interviewed people are above the threshold, they can all receive offers. Only this would maintain the idea that they are not disadvantaged in any way.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

My bad. Curtin's criteria for an interview is not necessarily very high for interstate people, but so too for in state people as well.

Isn't the system of inviting people after first round offers have been sent out inherently bias? If UWA/Curtin was to set aside x number of spots for interstate residents, what happens if there are more people who are above the threshold for an offer than there are offers to go around? Would that not mean that the lowest person that receives an interstate offer may be higher than the lowest person who receives a local offer? This would then mean that you would need a higher score as an interstate resident than a local one. The only way to potentially mitigate this is to invite only the exact amount of people to an interstate interview as there are offers spots, thereby making sure that even if all interviewed people are above the threshold, they can all receive offers. Only this would maintain the idea that they are not disadvantaged in any way.

The unis have all been doing this for years and have a lot more data to base their numbers on than we do. They (esp. UNSW) would know how many spaces they need to set aside for interstate students to ensure fairness. This is illustrated in the letters that they send to interstate applicants with an estimate of likelihood and the fact that, pretty routinely, we have locals getting second round offers to UNSW because more than enough spots for interstate students were set aside that once all those interstate applicants equalling lowest ranked successful local from first round have their second round offer, there are some ‘spares’ that go to the next on the list regardless of location.

If we see this routinely at MSO with access to ~5-10% of the data, you can guarantee the unis can be much more spot on with 100% access.

 

[TKAO]

The unis have all been doing this for years and have a lot more data to base their numbers on than we do. They (esp. UNSW) would know how many spaces they need to set aside for interstate students to ensure fairness. This is illustrated in the letters that they send to interstate applicants with an estimate of likelihood and the fact that, pretty routinely, we have locals getting second round offers to UNSW because more than enough spots for interstate students were set aside that once all those interstate applicants equalling lowest ranked successful local from first round have their second round offer, there are some ‘spares’ that go to the next on the list regardless of location.

If we see this routinely at MSO with access to ~5-10% of the data, you can guarantee the unis can be much more spot on with 100% access.

How does Monash get away with doing this then, if the other universities don't?

 

[Crow]

How does Monash get away with doing this then, if the other universities don't?

We really aren’t sure. The likes of UTAS and WSU can justify it as there are relative shortages in Western Sydney and Tasmania, so it’s to help meet workforce demands there. There is no such problem in Melbourne.

 

[A1]

How does Monash get away with doing this then, if the other universities don't?

UAdelaide's FAQ in response to the question why aren't more places reserved for SA students, said that would be unconstitutional & illegal. Monash either doesn't give a damn about the constitution or they have particular reasons (like UTas/WSU) to justify their selection process.

 

[A1]

If the weak students throw in the towel, the 2nd ranked student is worse off than the 1st ranked but only a little, no way it means game over.

We need a lot of maths to understand how this works. The three basic rules are (1) the 1st ranked gets their internal mark adjusted to match the cohort's highest HSC exam mark, (2) from 2nd ranked down get adjusted such that the cohort's total internal marks equals their total exam marks, (3) they are also adjusted proportionally (quadratically not linearly) to the spacings between their internal marks.

An example: internal marks 1st ranked 90, 2nd ranked 88; exam marks highest 91, total pool only 3/4 (exaggerated) of total internal.
Rule (1) 1st ranked internal mark is adjusted from 90 to 91
Rule (2) on its own would adjust 2nd ranked internal mark from 88 to 66 (being 3/4 given above)
Rule (3) says 2nd ranked was only 2 internal marks below 1st it can't now be given 66 vs 91. The quadratic formula they use will probably come out to about 85.

Just want to clarify if the "highest exam mark 91" in your example is achieved by the 1st ranked? If yes, that makes sense. If no, sounds unfair, esp. when it's 2nd ranked's mark.

The highest exam mark 91 can be by 1st or 2nd or anyone in the cohort. Important to note 1st does *not* get a 91 exam mark (their exam mark remains what it is), only their internal/school mark gets adjusted to 91.

So say 1st & 2nd score 87 & 91 in the HSC exam,
1st's HSC overall mark would be (their own 87 + adjusted 91) / 2 = 89
2nd's HSC overall mark would be (their own 91 + adjusted 85) / 2 = 88

They come out very close in the end, despite this an exaggerated example of 2nd being severely affected by weak students throwing in the towel. The Authority NESA have rules in place to remove abnormally low exam marks from the moderation pool anyway, to lessen the impact caused by throwing students.

 

[Tomato]

The highest exam mark 91 can be by 1st or 2nd or anyone in the cohort. Important to note 1st does *not* get a 91 exam mark (their exam mark remains what it is), only their internal/school mark gets adjusted to 91.

So say 1st & 2nd score 87 & 91 in the HSC exams,
1st's HSC overall mark would be (their own 87 + adjusted 91) / 2 = 89
2nd's HSC overall mark would be (their own 91 + adjusted 85) / 2 = 88

They come out very close in the end, despite this an exaggerated example of 2nd being severely affected by weak students throwing in the towel. The Authority NESA have rules in place to remove abnormally low exam marks from the moderation pool anyway, to lessen the impact caused by throwing students.

Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense.

 

[ponyswordz]

The unis have all been doing this for years and have a lot more data to base their numbers on than we do. They (esp. UNSW) would know how many spaces they need to set aside for interstate students to ensure fairness. This is illustrated in the letters that they send to interstate applicants with an estimate of likelihood and the fact that, pretty routinely, we have locals getting second round offers to UNSW because more than enough spots for interstate students were set aside that once all those interstate applicants equalling lowest ranked successful local from first round have their second round offer, there are some ‘spares’ that go to the next on the list regardless of location.

If we see this routinely at MSO with access to ~5-10% of the data, you can guarantee the unis can be much more spot on with 100% access.

How would a uni like UNSW which is probably the most popular uni for med have any spots left for a 2nd round offer? Is it to take the place of any excess leftover interstate spots? I would assume students would leave unsw med for another course. More expansion would be great. Thanks!

 

[A1]

How would a uni like UNSW which is probably the most popular uni for med have any spots left for a 2nd round offer? Is it to take the place of any excess leftover interstate spots?

In effect after their interviews UNSW puts interstate applicants plus all remaining locals (those already below the main offer round's cutoff) into one pool to compete for the set aside places.

In the unusual circumstance these places run out before reaching the main round's cutoff, UNSW can offer a few more places (they are allowed to go +5% over the quota) to give interstate applicants the same cutoff.

Usually though, since UNSW sets aside enough places, there are still a few left at the cutoff point. These will go to either interstate or local who happen to be next in line. For an interstate it's just like they are part of that offer round, for a local it appears like a 2nd round offer.

 

[DrDrLMG!]

Is it true that for WSU, after you get sent an interview offer, the final selection for entrance is only 25% UCAT and 75% MMI Interview?

Yes, this is true.

 

[benjimunlee]

Mod Note: Answered for Aus Med + DENT

Applying for: Medicine
Application Type: IB Secondary School Leaver
Predicted IB/ATAR/: 42 / 99.25
UCAT Percentile Rank: 80
VR: 630
DM: 680
QR: 760
AR: 630
Total: 2700
SJ: 665
Current State: Studying outside of Australia
Applying to: Any university that does medicine or dentistry, including UTAS, Aukland and Otago.
Rural Applicant: No
GWS Applicant: No
Indigenous Applicant: No
Other: Currently studying IB outside of Australia, am an Australian passport holder and citizen.
Specific Question:

Not sure about applying to universities that only base the interview on the UCAT seeing as I got a relatively low UCAT score, what are my chances of being invited to an interview at any med/dentistry school in Australia?

 

[A1]

Applying for: Medicine
Application Type: IB Secondary School Leaver
Predicted IB/ATAR/: 42 / 99.25
UCAT Percentile Rank: 80
VR: 630
DM: 680
QR: 760
AR: 630
Total: 2700
SJ: 665
Current State: Studying outside of Australia
Applying to: Any university that does medicine or dentistry, including UTAS, Aukland and Otago.
Rural Applicant: No
GWS Applicant: No
Indigenous Applicant: No
Other: Currently studying IB outside of Australia, am an Australian passport holder and citizen.
Specific Question:

Not sure about applying to universities that only base the interview on the UCAT seeing as I got a relatively low UCAT score, what are my chances of being invited to an interview at any med/dentistry school in Australia?

For the Aus med schools with 80%ile I'd say interviews are only possible with UWA, Curtin and JCU (with a strong written application). Maybe Monash if you qualify for the Monash Guarantee.

Hope Yamster will help with the Dent schools and rustyedges NZ schools.

 

[Henzells]

Applying for: Medicine
Application Type: Gap year
ATAR: 96.65
UCAT Percentile Rank: 99
VR: 700
DM: 770
QR: 890
AR: 870
Total: 3220
SJ: 600
Current State:
Applying to: JMP, WSU, Adelaide, Monash (maybe)
Rural Applicant: (no)
GWS Applicant: (no)
Indigenous Applicant: (no)
Other: no
Specific Question: Is there a point in applying for Monash with my ATAR? It’s lower than most people’s on here.